Something for most of you to go apeshit over

[7960]

Originally Posted by A_C_E

No, it would be to go home and call the cops, who would then go into his house.

So how is this really any different is what I'm thinking, I suppose

they should not have entered his house.

[A_C_E]

Originally Posted by 7960

they should not have entered his house.

I forgot that you were impossible to reason with.

[Simius]

Originally Posted by 7960

but killing unknown people in your bedroom does. it sort of angers me that he'd get in trouble for killing someone who said "we're the police" ......... like a burglar wouldn't ever do that.

the cops had no business in his house. if they thought he was "in trouble" they could have contacted a family member to go in.

Do the police have a way to contact your relatives or an emergency contact number on record? If not, how are they going to contact a family member in a reasonable time if you are in trouble? Let's say the reason your key is in your ignition, the garage door is open, the front door is open, the tv is on and you aren't able to respond because you are slipping into a diabetic coma.... Should the police put a sign up in front of your house saying "Hey, if you know this guy could you go in and see if he is alright, k thanx bai." That just seems like a silly argument to me.

Then again, let's say they do get a hold of your brother and get him over there... then give him permission to break and enter into your house (Somehow it is more legal for the police to have someone else enter your property if they believe something is wrong than to do it themselves, don't ask me why). IF this guy in the house shoots 2 uniformed police after they announce they are entering... wouldn't it be just as likely that he'd shoot his brother because he was startled or whatever? Seriously, I am not sure how sending in a family member would solve anything.

[7960]

Originally Posted by A_C_E

I forgot that you were impossible to reason with.

negative.

what you should have said was it's impossible to get me to pretend an unreasonable argument is anything but that.

[7960]

Originally Posted by Simius

Do the police have a way to contact your relatives or an emergency contact number on record?

411.com - makes more sense than thinking they should walk in your house.

Then again, let's say they do get a hold of your brother .....wouldn't it be just as likely that he'd shoot his brother because he was startled or whatever? Seriously, I am not sure how sending in a family member would solve anything.

I know my brother's voice, especially when he's yelling my name. But when 2 guys lean over my bed there's a good chance something bad is going to happen.

[Simius]

This post isn't me arguing with you... I'm just picking your brain:

Originally Posted by 7960

411.com - makes more sense than thinking they should walk in your house.

I know my brother's voice, especially when he's yelling my name. But when 2 guys lean over my bed there's a good chance something bad is going to happen.

Do you believe there is ever a time when the police should go into your house when they reasonably believe something is wrong.

Obviously you don't think the garage and front door being open, the tv on, keys in the ignition, you being unable to respond etc is enough for them to walk in even if they think something is wrong...

But what if you add on to that: the front door isn't just open but it has been kicked open. Or there is a trickle of blood from the truck leading inside. Or they can see the foot of someone passed out behind the couch (maybe he is just drunk, maybe he is injured, can't tell from their perspective). Or the windows are all busted out with bullet holes in the front of the house.

Would 1 or multiple of the above make you say "yeah, the cops should go check it out" Or are you fundamentally opposed to the cops entering since any of those could have perfectly reasonable explanations for why they are there and the cops still shouldn't trespass on your property no matter how much they think there is someone in need within?

I guess my question is: Do you think there just wasn't enough for them to reasonably believe there was somebody who needed help inside so they shouldn't have entered to check it out... or do you believe that no matter how convinced the cops are that there is someone in need of help inside they should never enter?

[7960]

Originally Posted by Simius

This post isn't me arguing with you... I'm just picking your brain:



Do you believe there is ever a time when the police should go into your house when they reasonably believe something is wrong.

Ever a time? I'm not sure. I would say "...his garage door was open, the TV was on, the keys to his truck were left in the ignition and the door to his house was ajar..." isn't it.

Obviously you don't think the garage and front door being open, the tv on, keys in the ignition, you being unable to respond etc is enough for them to walk in even if they think something is wrong...

Correct. I wouldn't be surprised if my house is like that right now.

But what if you add on to that: the front door isn't just open but it has been kicked open. Or there is a trickle of blood from the truck leading inside. Or they can see the foot of someone passed out behind the couch (maybe he is just drunk, maybe he is injured, can't tell from their perspective). Or the windows are all busted out with bullet holes in the front of the house.

You're changing the situation. If the cops looked in the front door and he had a machete at one of the kids' throats then that would change the situation, too. But neither of those was there. They just saw a door they say was open and went in.

I guess my question is: Do you think there just wasn't enough for them to reasonably believe there was somebody who needed help inside so they shouldn't have entered to check it out... or do you believe that no matter how convinced the cops are that there is someone in need of help inside they should never enter?

The former.

[Kytro]

I think in this case what the police did was reasonable. If that had entered without trying to make contact first I would have thought differently.

[lew]

The entire problem with this whole issue is this "Their surprise visit was part of a public service campaign to remind residents to secure their homes to prevent thefts. Usually, officers just leave notices on doors."


I don't need a fucking police officer to come and disturb me at my house just to remind me to secure my home.

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by lew

The entire problem with this whole issue is this "Their surprise visit was part of a public service campaign to remind residents to secure their homes to prevent thefts. Usually, officers just leave notices on doors."


I don't need a fucking police officer to come and disturb me at my house just to remind me to secure my home.

You talking about the notice on the door or them coming in? I doubt they planned to enter until they saw signs that led them to concern.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by A_C_E

Killing cops doesn't work that way. Especially not when they're acting in the best interest of civilians they believe to be in trouble.

But cops accidentally killing civilians does. Should it?

If you wake up in the middle of the night and are startled by an unknown person in your room you have every right to shoot them. It'd be a mistake, but not one you should be punished for.

It's completely ridiculous to say that someone mistaking a cop for an intruder should be punished for their mistake when they're inside their own home, asleep.

[thewise1]

Nothing about TV on, door ajar, garage door open, or keys in the ignition indicate any problem to me. Maybe I just live in a nice area but I've done each of those individually several times, I just forgot.

None of them are a reason to put me at risk for being shot by a police officer who is afraid for his life when I pull out a firearm (assuming I woke up in time )

[7960]

Originally Posted by lew

The entire problem with this whole issue is this "Their surprise visit was part of a public service campaign to remind residents to secure their homes to prevent thefts. Usually, officers just leave notices on doors."


I don't need a fucking police officer to come and disturb me at my house just to remind me to secure my home.

this ranks right up there with the cop who pulled me over for not wearing a helmet in a state that doesn't require motorcyclists to wear helmets.

[DosEquis]

I would say that given the situation as outlined...

door open, door to vehicle open, keys in it... at 3am.. I would say the police did the right thing by making sure there was no problems or if they could help in any way.

On the flip side i agree with lew that the public service campaign is stupid.

[7960]

Originally Posted by DosEquis

door open, door to vehicle open, keys in it... at 3am.. I would say the police did the right thing by making sure there was no problems or if they could help in any way.

they did the right thing by entering his house, searching room-to-room, and ending up in his bedroom leaning over his bed?

the article said the police said they were justified "because the officers' initial door knocks went unanswered" ... tha'ts all it takes?

[thewise1]

So if I'm not home and I leave my house open, does that mean police have the right to enter my home?



I would argue no, it does not, but apparently this isn't unanimous.

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by 7960

they did the right thing by entering his house, searching room-to-room, and ending up in his bedroom leaning over his bed?

the article said the police said they were justified "because the officers' initial door knocks went unanswered" ... tha'ts all it takes?

I think thats taking some liberties with the story.

The way I read it.

Police knock, no answer.
(probably declare themselves)
Enter
Find children having slumber party
Ask them to get father
Kids say no
Officers go upstairs and talk to father

I didn't read anything that would imply they searched room to room and leaned over his bed before waking him.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by thewise1

So if I'm not home and I leave my house open, does that mean police have the right to enter my home?



I would argue no, it does not, but apparently this isn't unanimous.

I'd say if you leave your house open, don't be shocked that someone comes in - whether they come looking to harm you or checking to see if you're ok.

I wouldn't say it gives anyone a right, but I'd also say if you don't want people entering your place you should be a little more proactive.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by Phantom

I'd say if you leave your house open, don't be shocked that someone comes in - whether they come looking to harm you or checking to see if you're ok.

I wouldn't say it gives anyone a right, but I'd also say if you don't want people entering your place you should be a little more proactive.

Is that along the lines of blaming the victim for the theft of his car because the keys were on the seat?



I mean I agree, it's better to be proactive about it, but like you said, that doesn't give anyone some right to come in, and it certainly doesn't offer law enforcement any evidence that something is wrong in itself...

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by thewise1