Originally Posted by Phantom I still think the officer crossed the line, but just barely. I understand why people are upset, especially considering the safety campaign, but a person so careless with their rights does not have much basis for complaint. Those of you with guns who will shoot an ...
06-23-2008, 02:30 PM
| #41 | ||||
| Governments should fear their people  Paleolibertarian 
| Originally Posted by Phantom 
 It's MY fucking house. If I want to sleep with the front door open and a tv on, I can do that. | ||||
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06-23-2008, 02:33 PM
| #42 | ||||
| Perpetual Noob Independent
| Originally Posted by lew Protect your rights or expect them to be trampled on. If you wait for the world to protect your rights for you, expect to be disappointed.
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06-23-2008, 02:41 PM
| #43 | ||||
| Give me liberty or give me death!  libertarian Lake Stevens, WA
| Originally Posted by Phantom Assuming I could realistically get to my firearms in time (I don't sleep with it under my pillow or anything like some of the internet ninjas) all I can say is I would seriously hope that the police would declare themselves as such and respect the fact that I'd demand proof and that they leave the house (what thief or person intent on harm would do that?) while I get dressed and come down to speak with them.
But I'd be a lot more careful with kid(s) in the house as well, as there was a slumber party | ||||
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06-23-2008, 02:47 PM
| #44 | ||||
| Give me liberty or give me death! libertarian Lake Stevens, WA
| Originally Posted by Phantom I agree with this in general, but the officers should never have been on the property in the first place. I shouldn't have to close my garage door to maintain the sanctity of my home.
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06-23-2008, 02:48 PM
| #45 | ||||
| ipsa Scientia Potestas est  Pragmatist Greensboro, NC
| I think the police officers were acting on good faith, if they have reasonable suspicion that someone is in trouble I would assume most people would prefer they act to ensure I didn't see the thing about the keys to the guys truck being in the ignition.. In combination with everything else, I can certainly understand why they may have thought he'd be in trouble Personally I can't imagine NOT locking up if you have a bunch of kids over. Really irresponsible of the guy for sure. | ||||
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06-23-2008, 02:58 PM
| #46 | ||||
| Give me liberty or give me death! libertarian Lake Stevens, WA
| Originally Posted by motivez Given the items listed, what exactly leads you to believe someone was in trouble or a crime was being committed?
I'm interested in hearing you guys articulate exactly what thought process leads to that decision. It's probably not a huge deal just because folks that actually have firearms would HOPEFULLY be smart enough to lock up at night, and it's not like they charged him with anything, but it kinda bothers me a little anyway... Would hate for that sort of thing to happen to me and then I either kill a cop or get killed by one thinking he has to defend himself. | ||||
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06-23-2008, 02:59 PM
| #47 | ||||
| Give me liberty or give me death! libertarian Lake Stevens, WA
| Also I do agree that it was irresponsible of him to not lock up. I'm just remembering times when I forgot my garage door was open... I always lock the front door, it's just habit. | ||||
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06-23-2008, 03:03 PM
| #48 | ||||
| ipsa Scientia Potestas est Pragmatist Greensboro, NC
| Don't get me wrong, it bothers me too. I'd be on the guys side if he had shot the police officer, woken up in the middle of the night by someone you don't expect to be there it's completely reasonable for you to take action to defend yourself from a perceived threat. As far as what would make them think something is wrong.. If the police are in the area, notice a guy has his car keys in the car, the garage door open, house door ajar, and no one answered when they called out.. he could have just come home to some kind of robbery attempt in progress and gotten shot, he could have fallen and hurt himself, any number of things It's certainly reasonable to believe something isn't right because it's not typical for people to leave their houses wide open like that in the middle of the night | ||||
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06-23-2008, 03:15 PM
| #49 | ||||
| Give me liberty or give me death! libertarian Lake Stevens, WA
| Originally Posted by motivez I think it comes down to blaming a stupid safety campaign, because all else being equal, the only thing noticeable from the street should have been the garage door and MAYBE the front door, but that's iffy. Depends on the house. You couldn't tell on mine, but I guess it depends...
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06-23-2008, 03:23 PM
| #50 | ||||
| ipsa Scientia Potestas est Pragmatist Greensboro, NC
| Well, obviously if they weren't in the area they would have never noticed. But they were. Do you think they should have just walked away? It seems against their mission to ignore someone potentially in trouble I mean, walking into the guys bedroom was overstepping it IMO, but I think most people would prefer they check to make sure they aren't lying on the floor bleeding to death or something | ||||
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06-23-2008, 03:44 PM
| #51 | ||||
| Governments should fear their people Paleolibertarian
| Originally Posted by Phantom
So, then you agree that the police were trampling upon his rights. This is the point. A criminal will trample upon your rights, of course. He should be punished. Likewise, these police should be punished. | ||||
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06-23-2008, 03:46 PM
| #52 | ||||
| Left Wing Hack  Democrat Hastings, NE
| Originally Posted by thewise1 Let's pretend the guy took his insulin for his diabetes then forgot to eat and drove home. As he was driving home he started going into insulin shock. This happens.
Had that happened I wouldn't be shocked if the garage door was open, the keys in the ignition, the front door open... and the TV on (he could have turned it on to watch it... then his blood sugars continued to tank so he got up and passed out somewhere else). Had this happened he wouldn't be able to respond and it would be VERY important to get to him as quickly as possible. This is just 1 out of a dozen scenarios where it would be pretty reasonable to assume someone was in need of help inside. Assuming the cops were acting on good faith and not looking for an excuse to enter people's houses... then I have no problem with this. I think they had reasonable cause to think there might be something wrong and a duty to act when they believe there is something wrong. Fortunately, there was nobody inside who needed help, but they couldn't have know that before checking. Of course reasonable cause is fairly subjective, we have one extreme like 7960 (yes, I am purposely putting words in your mouth) who don't think the cops should have acted without seeing a dead body first... and there is the other extreme where just an open garage door would be considered reasonable cause. But in all reality the true test for reasonable cause can't really be defined before hand since every situation is different but it falls somewhere in the middle of the two extremes. It is up to the officer to make that call and IF he makes a bad decision and oversteps his bounds and ends up finding something illegal within... then I expect a judge to throw the evidence out and drop any subsequent charges.
Of course if the home owner responded after they entered... and they had no reason to believe that it was a hostage situation or something... then I'd expect the cops to wait outside and ask for permission to enter after the home owner greeted them at the front door. If the home owner denies the cops then they should go on their merry little way. (as long as they didn't have reason to believe the home owner was boiling babies in the basement or something.  )
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06-23-2008, 03:46 PM
| #53 | ||||
| Governments should fear their people Paleolibertarian
| Originally Posted by motivez
But that's the entire problem. How would the cops know your keys were in the car unless they were already on your property snooping around? | ||||
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06-23-2008, 03:48 PM
| #54 | ||||
| Give me liberty or give me death! libertarian Lake Stevens, WA
| Originally Posted by motivez I never prefer a police officer to come in my home uninvited..
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06-23-2008, 03:49 PM
| #55 | ||||
| Governments should fear their people Paleolibertarian
| Originally Posted by Simius
That is completely irrelevant. Are you suggesting that police be stationed inside everyone's house to make sure nothing bad ever happens? Again, the problem here isn't even the isolated incident, the problem was the entire situation. Police have no business going door to door to check to see if you are secure in your home. | ||||
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06-23-2008, 03:52 PM
| #56 | ||||
| Give me liberty or give me death! libertarian Lake Stevens, WA
| Originally Posted by Simius None of those scenarios are directly supported by the scenario as views from the street or even the front door, though. I could make up a million more scenarios where these things are perfectly benign or malicious behavior was going on, or something like the one you listed. If the front door was closed but everything else was similar should they still have entered? What about the front door being open leads you to think insulin/diabetic?
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06-23-2008, 03:58 PM
| #57 | ||||
| ipsa Scientia Potestas est Pragmatist Greensboro, NC
| Originally Posted by lew They had a legitimate reason to be there, whether you think it was a "good reason" is a different topic. They weren't there to snoop, they were there as a part of an officially sanctioned safety campaign and that's when they noticed it.
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06-23-2008, 04:01 PM
| #58 | ||||
| ipsa Scientia Potestas est Pragmatist Greensboro, NC
| Originally Posted by lew No one here is suggesting anything close to this.
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06-23-2008, 04:01 PM
| #59 | ||||
| Governments should fear their people Paleolibertarian
| Originally Posted by motivez
Right. Which is exactly the entire reason I am against this. The sanctioned safety campaign is bullshit. | ||||
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