UK Top World Weapon Sales

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by Viv

Compared to what previous very large number? Where are your figures coming from...oops, you don't have figures. I'm not sure what you are comparing the current death rate to.

Please note, I am asking. I accept your assertion but just for fun,
where have crime rates reduced when people were allowed to own guns? Do you have an example?

The same examples I always use. Kennesaw, GA is a great example which had crime problems in the early 80's, passed a law that required residents to own guns, then they didn't have a murder in some 16 or 17 years (they had one in the past year or two which was a crime of passion).

And my "compared to the previous large number" statement meant compared to the number of people who own guns. So you have LOTS of people that own guns, FEW people that die by them, and VERY few that die by legal guns. And those that do usually die in gun restricted locations (like the few school tragedies in the past decade).

[Ardentfrost]

Here's some interesting reading on how gun control works in different cultures:

International Gun Control symposium

The first of these two nations with strict laws is Japan. In Japan, rifles and handguns are entirely outlawed and the possession of shotguns and air guns is only allowed under a very, very severe licensing system that imposes an enormous bureaucratic burden on the potential licensee. Japan is an extremely safe society. You can walk down the street at 4:00 A.M. in the roughest part of Tokyo and feel no concern at all for your personal safety. I think the Japanese gun laws have quite a lot to do with that, indirectly, because guns are unavailable. Japan has a very strong organized crime group known as the Yakuza. Illegal drugs, illegal guns, illegal anything else you want, Filipino sex slaves literally, all those kinds of things are available through the Yakuza. But there is very little demand even within the criminal community for guns. The cultural lesson that is taught in Japan by the very strict gun laws reinforces a message that exists throughout Japanese society--the individual is subordinate to the larger organization, whether it's the child and the family, the student and the school, the worker and the corporation, or the individual and society. People are expected to subordinate their individual desires to the greater collective good. Gun control, even though it doesn't directly work at disarming criminals who want to get guns, plays an important role in reinforcing this cultural message.

The other nation that is equally as safe as Japan is Switzerland. Switzerland also has very strict gun controls, but of a different kind. In Switzerland, every male, starting at about age twenty and continuing for the next thirty-five years of his life, has to serve several weeks a year in the militia. The nation of Switzerland has always been defended by a militia composed of ordinary citizens, rather than by a professional, full-time standing army; and citizens are required to spend several weeks every year in militia training. As part of the militia training, Swiss men are given assault rifles. These rifles are not the kind we have in the United States (which are guns that look, but do not function, like machine guns because they only shoot one bullet at a time when you squeeze the trigger). Members of the Swiss militia receive genuine article SIG brand assault rifles; they are military machine guns--the same as an M-16 rifle that a U.S. soldier carries. Militia members are required to keep their guns at home, to keep the ammunition, to periodically practice shooting, and to certify their marksmanship skills.

In many other ways, the Swiss government strongly encourages its citizens to be armed. There is a very lenient licensing system for handguns. In most cantons, which are the equivalent of states, there are relatively few controls on long guns. In fact, you can obtain anti-aircraft missiles, howitzers, bazookas, and low-grade artillery in Switzerland with much less trouble than it would take to obtain a building permit in New York City. The Swiss licensing system is wide open and aims to encourage the people of the nation to be as well-armed and as well-versed in as many kinds of arms as possible--it's not an optional thing. If you are a male, you have to be in the militia and you have to become a good shooter with your assault rifle. And yet, Switzerland has very little gun crime. The homicide rate is essentially the same as Japan's, and Switzerland has the same kind of safe streets that are characteristic of Japan.

So you have two very safe nations, one with some of the strictest gun control in the world, the other with the loosest. However, in the one with really strict gun control, you have a prevalent crime syndicate that doesn't even feel the need to carry guns all the time.

I guess it depends on what you want out of your own society. Personally, I'm not a big fan of crime syndicates. I'd much rather go for the high availability approach to guns and still have the low crime thing.

Of course, both of those countries have largely different cultures, especially Japan. All the same, their approaches to guns and resulting crime rates are quite interesting.

[avsp]

Originally Posted by motivez

Show me one society where no one has a gun.. They don't exist, and people who want guns for criminal purposes can still get them, thus leaving ordinary citizens without a gun to defend themselves with.

The premise of "If someone does not have a gun, he cannot shoot you." doesn't seem to mesh with the reality of guns being easily attainable for the criminal element of a society.

While you say they are usually limited to the drug culture, that doesn't mean they're unattainable for someone who wants to commit a robbery with the use of a firearm, so why not give law abiding citizens a chance to defend themselves?

The aim is to minimise the number of guns available to crims.

Even in a gun culture if someone held me up at gun point the last thing I'd do is go for my own weapon I'd be certain to be shot then surely?
Saying that ppl be less likely to hold me up coz I might be armed doesnt jibe either, ..., it just means they'd shoot me first just in case.

Obviously none of these hypothetical situations are really what its about anyway.

The crime culture of a nation/area is determined by many many other things apart from the availability of guns

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by motivez

MF's at BAE?

Google BAE bribes...

[C4Casey]

Here's a rare piece of some good, unbiased reporting by the NY Times on the subject. Draw your own conclussions from it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/we.../29liptak.html

[Charles Martel]

Originally Posted by Spideynw

I don't care about businesses selling weapons. It does concern me though when governments get involved in deciding who can be sold to.

So...if General Dynamics Electirc Boat wishes to sell a nuclear submarine complete with ballistic nuclear missile capability to Mahmoud in downtown Tehran....yer ok with that?