Obama's Reparations

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

They should be thankful they live in the US and not in the African nations where most of their ancestors were from.

Okay, and that's essentially saying that they should be thankful for the course of history that brought them here.. including slavery, no?

I don't see how you can separate the two statements.

I'm not saying you're wrong about them being better off here than there (given the choice, I'll pick the US, and I'm sure they would too)

[Stylerod]

I think you can be thankful for where you live without being thankful for the situation that put you there.

Sometimes good things come out of terrible events.

[Rouger2]

So many people in america are of mixed race and many do not know it. I believe they found it to be a very high percentage. How are we determine who pays who. Since Obama is half and half should he take money out of one pocket and put in the other to pay and receive his reparation.

[7960]

Originally Posted by chriswallace112

Thanks for your candidness. I am not only conscious of the argument that you are expressing against reparations, I agree. I am not saying that Africa-Americans need an immediate form of monetary compensation for their suffering, but some sort of reconciliation between history and the races is necessary for America to be able to put this behind her. This means that we must talk about reparations... truly "reparations" to repair race relation, to repair historical crimes, to repair the abuse. Should the black community be a bit more introspective about its problems? Certainly. Should America as a nation be willing to talk about reparations without thinking that people at the extreme ends of the political spectrum are bringing it up? Absolutely.

Obama's version of reparations, as he talked about at a debate, includes investment in education, which can only mean investing in inner city schools and schools with higher than average African-American populations. He will go further in order to establish himself as something more than a teachers's pet and be the man who is able to right America's wrongs and move forward on international relations and domestic relations. I say that we must work on our culture.. I only ask for the possibility of compensation (invest in education, jobs, etc) for years of denial... one way or another... but the only politician who can truly ask for these reparations is Barack Obama.

so you won't take my deal?

So I'll tell you what...I'll write a check for $1,000 today to pay reparations for this country's "past sins." I'll even get all my friends to do it, and I'll go on TV and get every "european" and other immigrant to do it, on one condition. We end all social programs and put that tax money back in my wallet. If we're going to cut you a check for being black then we're going to do this thing one time. You won't ever again be able to expect extra points added to your test scores or to go to the front of the admissions line because of your skin color. From now on you'll be treated just like everyone else and your black skin won't get you anything extra.

Deal?

[7960]

Originally Posted by motivez

Okay, and that's essentially saying that they should be thankful for the course of history that brought them here.. including slavery, no?

I don't see how you can separate the two statements.

I'm not saying you're wrong about them being better off here than there (given the choice, I'll pick the US, and I'm sure they would too)

how about this?

the course of history brought them here. period. that's it. nobody has to be happy or sad about it, it's just fact.

now I'm waiting for chriswallace112 to attempt to justify reparations with something other than appeal to emotion................and wondering why he won't take my deal.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by 7960

how about this?

the course of history brought them here. period. that's it. nobody has to be happy or sad about it, it's just fact.

now I'm waiting for chriswallace112 to attempt to justify reparations with something other than appeal to emotion................and wondering why he won't take my deal.

Because he is not reading responses. He is blindly copy and pasting these to multiple forums.

[7960]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Because he is not reading responses. He is blindly copy and pasting these to multiple forums.

and here I was thinking it was because he wants my reparations check *AND* continue to get his social programs funded by my tax dollars.

[chriswallace112]

Originally Posted by 7960

So you want native americans (indians) to pay reparations to blacks? Because if you're not going to have european immigrants do it then who else does it leave to pay?

You're asking for reparations. By definition you're spewing racism.

But somehow a check is going to make it "easier"? Make it "right"?

For the same reason I fear taking a wrong turn in atlanta or the bronx.

Not NECESSARILY? You mean part of you thinks everyone's pockets SHOULD be emptied??!?!?



So I'll tell you what...I'll write a check for $1,000 today to pay reparations for this country's "past sins." I'll even get all my friends to do it, and I'll go on TV and get every "european" and other immigrant to do it, on one condition. We end all social programs and put that tax money back in my wallet. If we're going to cut you a check for being black then we're going to do this thing one time. You won't ever again be able to expect extra points added to your test scores or to go to the front of the admissions line because of your skin color. From now on you'll be treated just like everyone else and your black skin won't get you anything extra.

Deal?

Sorry for taking so long... been out of town. I do not agree with mere monetary compensation... if you'd like you can contribute some money to satisfy the oversimplified, 1800's version of "reparations." I said in a previous post that it can't simply be a check, most rational African-Americans that are not looking for a handout reject the idea of receiving a check for slavery... in fact, we were not slaves, our ancestors were.

The reparations I refer to are more "grown up" and reflect the current situation that we are in. There is relatively less racially-based violence. There exist opportunities for people of all colors. These are positive developments, but obviously are not enough. One cannot justify that generations of denial be remedied by "I won't lynch you no more" or "I won't take away your vote anymore" or "I'll let you get a job (based on merit)"... these are human rights... we should have had them the moment we separated from the British. The problem is that African-Americans could not develop a foundation economically, culturally, and politically in a healthy way. So reparations refers to the repair of race relations by addressing and fixing the injustice done to a whole race of people... how? That's something that I would like to be discussed on a national level... how to right this wrong. Is this an emotional appeal? Not really. It takes away some of these so-called black leaders' power over the black community, the one's that teach that we are victims and have no power in the world... because once the injustice is addressed, there is no excuse for this argument or world-view. In society, it will reduce the percentages of African-Americans who, due to desperate economic circumstances, a backwards urban culture and a lack of quality education, go into crime and drugs. That's hardly an emotional effect.

Reparations must address all of these issues: education, culture, economic circumstances, political participation, etc. for it to be of any use. No I don't think that we need a check to people individually, but maybe programs geared to getting African-Americans the help that they need in our to lift ourselves up collectively out of the quicksand that slavery and discrimination directly produced.

Make your checks out to those in need if you'd like. But I require a more universal solution. Hope that answers your question.

[7960]

Originally Posted by chriswallace112

Sorry for taking so long... been out of town. I do not agree with mere monetary compensation... if you'd like you can contribute some money to satisfy the oversimplified, 1800's version of "reparations." I said in a previous post that it can't simply be a check, most rational African-Americans that are not looking for a handout reject the idea of receiving a check for slavery... in fact, we were not slaves, our ancestors were.

Go back far enough and so were mine. The difference between us is I don't blame the life I have today with what others did hundreds of years ago while you want to look around and say tell people what's happening to them now is someone else's fault and "they" should pay.

The reparations I refer to are more "grown up" and reflect the current situation that we are in.

Do you want govt programs? done. Race-based quotas? done. Preferential treatment based on skin color? done. The GOVERNMENT is not discriminating against you because you're black. Whites might be, asians might be, even other blacks might be but it's not the GOVERNMENT'S job to monitor or make-good for anything a private person does.

Is this an emotional appeal?

of course it is.

blah blah blah......That's hardly an emotional effect.

That's EXACTLY an emotional appeal. "Look at poor us...generations before we were born bad things happened to people who looked like us so we deserve more/bigger/better than you!" Emotional appeal.

Reparations must address all of these issues: education, culture, economic circumstances, political participation, etc. for it to be of any use.

So you want.......everyone?.......to somehow get blacks more education when they don't want to be in school, more culture even though that doesn't make sense, different economic circumstances but somehow you believe that does not entail cutting a check, more political participation when they clearly don't give a shit about politics.

??

Essentially you're asking whites to make blacks give a shit. WTF.

Make your checks out to those in need if you'd like. But I require a more universal solution. Hope that answers your question.

I didn't really have a question. I offered you a deal. Your answer reaffirms what I got from your original post.

[chriswallace112]

Originally Posted by 7960

Go back far enough and so were mine. The difference between us is I don't blame the life I have today with what others did hundreds of years ago while you want to look around and say tell people what's happening to them now is someone else's fault and "they" should pay.

The issue is not whose parents, grandparents, etc. were slaves but rather that the institution of slavery was enabled by the stark phenotypical differences between the masters and the slaves. This meant that anyone of dark complexion was treated as personal property and denied basic rights. Therefore, even black people who had nothing to do with slavery disenfranchised and oppressed. Whose fault is that?

On the point of personal responsibility, I agree whole heartedly; the black community needs to do its part and not suffer from a victim mentality. Reparations will be like meeting us halfway and putting an end to the excuses that America hasn't tried to help in a meaningful way.

Do you want govt programs? done. Race-based quotas? done. Preferential treatment based on skin color? done. The GOVERNMENT is not discriminating against you because you're black. Whites might be, asians might be, even other blacks might be but it's not the GOVERNMENT'S job to monitor or make-good for anything a private person does.

Interesting. But I am referring to government actions. First though, the programs that you mentioned are good first steps to address the problem... but they don't solve it. They are the product of the idea that "opportunity" is all America needs to give. True in most cases, but not when America denied the humanity of an entire race for so long. These programs are just a way of saying "here, I'll help you get in the back of the line" and that thought is what I oppose. Furthermore, numbers don't lie, if these programs solved the problem the disparties wouldn't be so pronounced.

Is it the government's job to make good on what it's citizens do? Technically yes. That's why we can't engage in aggressive acts against foreign nations as private individuals, that's why during recessions or depressions (caused by private individuals) the government intervenes, that's why when there are riots or demonstrations the government dispatches law enforcement or riot control. The government has a direct interest in making sure everybody is getting along just fine and it acts to preserve this stability. To get back to the point before that, yes the government did discriminate based on skin color and that full force of federal authority coupled with a willing majority pushed back the black community and left us in the state we are currently in. Is government discriminating now? For the sake of being on the same page I'll say no, but I know plenty of people who believe otherwise.

of course it is.

That's EXACTLY an emotional appeal. "Look at poor us...generations before we were born bad things happened to people who looked like us so we deserve more/bigger/better than you!" Emotional appeal.

I can't help you here if you consider my argument to be emotional. I said that people going into crime and drugs because of the conditions that have been produced create a real problem. That argument is not emotional. I'm saying that everyone in society suffers when certain segments resort to crime and drugs. The "blah blah blah" portion was the argument I made... let's have an honest discussion please.

So you want.......everyone?.......to somehow get blacks more education when they don't want to be in school, more culture even though that doesn't make sense, different economic circumstances but somehow you believe that does not entail cutting a check, more political participation when they clearly don't give a shit about politics.

??

Essentially you're asking whites to make blacks give a shit. WTF.

Inner city schools are underfunded and the quality of education in black communities tends to be worse. Let's fix that and then maybe the value of going to school will go up.

More culture? Not quite. An example of addressing cultural issues is to see if government can do anything to help the black family stay together or if they can help keep the black church alive and thriving. Of course these are social problems, and if government can't do much then it's understandable.

More political participation... if they saw that politics was responsive to the needs of African-Americans then it would increase. That's a contribution that Obama has already made, mobilize the African_American vote.

With regards to economic reparation, that's a bit tricky because IMO, we do not know what would have happened had African-Americans been able to pursue the American Dream. We don't know how many would have succeeded and how many wouldn't have. Economic policy towards the black community should take this into account (plus interest). I don't say that cutting a check cannot be a part of it... it could be a big part of it or maybe not, but I think we should put that up to a vote.

Blacks will give more of a shit when the nation as a whole shows some interest in our fate... hence: reparations.

I didn't really have a question. I offered you a deal. Your answer reaffirms what I got from your original post.

You said "Deal?" yes question.

The deal is insufficient to fix the problem.

[7960]

Originally Posted by chriswallace112

The issue is not whose parents, grandparents, etc. were slaves but rather that the institution of slavery was enabled by the stark phenotypical differences between the masters and the slaves. This meant that anyone of dark complexion was treated as personal property and denied basic rights. Therefore, even black people who had nothing to do with slavery disenfranchised and oppressed. Whose fault is that?

And the govt's role in that ended long ago. The govt should not be involved in racism or oppression and it hasn't been for quite some time. And if it's found that that's not the case then the person in that govt position (or group/agency/policy/whatever) needs changing and/or punishing. The govt should not be involved in that behavior at all.

But, private companies and individuals should be allowed to do as they please. In other words if you walk in my store it should be perfectly legal for me to tell you to get the fuck out for no other reason than because you're black.

On the point of personal responsibility, I agree whole heartedly; the black community needs to do its part and not suffer from a victim mentality. Reparations will be like meeting us halfway and putting an end to the excuses that America hasn't tried to help in a meaningful way.

Half way? Reparations would be america bending over and taking it without even getting a reach around. America has tried to help in a meaningful way and by and large the black community has ignored it.

Interesting. But I am referring to government actions. First though, the programs that you mentioned are good first steps to address the problem... but they don't solve it. They are the product of the idea that "opportunity" is all America needs to give. True in most cases, but not when America denied the humanity of an entire race for so long. These programs are just a way of saying "here, I'll help you get in the back of the line" and that thought is what I oppose.

Obviously you oppose it. You think blacks should be blindly put in the front of the line, apparently even when they're not qualified. Somehow their skin color, to you, is all they need for a ticket not only to the front but also in the door, given the job, and allowed to fuck up for a while before being asked to leave. I'm sure when they're fired in record numbers you'll see that as just more discrimination, hmm?

Furthermore, numbers don't lie, if these programs solved the problem the disparties wouldn't be so pronounced.

Nice fallacy . There's another option, that even though the programs are there the people they are targeted toward aren't taking advantage of them. More than once I heard a black kid make fun of another black kid for "acting white." That was slang for "being smart" or "getting good grades." When the people who are supposed to use the advantages afforded them do not because they're too ignorant to see they're being given a step up then I've got to say, screw them.

Is it the government's job to make good on what it's citizens do? Technically yes.

Technically, NO. It's the govt's job to pave roads, provide my military, and make sure everyone has equal access to govt programs (govt insured loans, for example). And last I checked the streets in the bronx are paved as well as mine, the banks in harlem have the same rules and laws as mine, and the military isn't just surrounding my house they're also protecting the ghetto.

....the government did discriminate based on skin color and that full force of federal authority coupled with a willing majority pushed back the black community and left us in the state we are currently in. Is government discriminating now? For the sake of being on the same page I'll say no,

Exactly. The govt is not now, and has not for a long time, engaged in discrimination against blacks. It does against whites but like you said we can ignore that for the purposes of this thread.

So, essentially, you want *MORE* programs to get blacks to care (even though the programs in place now are being ignored). How do you make someone care?

I can't help you here if you consider my argument to be emotional. I said that people going into crime and drugs because of the conditions that have been produced create a real problem. That argument is not emotional. I'm saying that everyone in society suffers when certain segments resort to crime and drugs. The "blah blah blah" portion was the argument I made... let's have an honest discussion please.

I am having an honest discussion. I'm saying you expecting reparations NOW for what happened THEN is emotional because you keep leaning on this "but but BUT THEY'RE TURNING TO DRUGS!" argument.

Inner city schools are underfunded and the quality of education in black communities tends to be worse. Let's fix that and then maybe the value of going to school will go up.

I see nothing wrong with this. IMO education as a whole is not afforded the importance it deserves. But up to now you've been saying blacks turn to crime and drugs because their ancestors were slaves. That's crap. They do it because (a) it's easier, (b) their peers/leaders are doing it, (c) they don't see education as a way out, (d) crime/drugs pay off today while education might not pay off for years/decades. This isn't left over from slavery. It's laziness and shitty parenting.

More culture? Not quite. An example of addressing cultural issues is to see if government can do anything to help the black family stay together or if they can help keep the black church alive and thriving. Of course these are social problems, and if government can't do much then it's understandable.

The govt shouldn't be trying to get inside a black home any more than it should be trying to get in a white one.

More political participation... if they saw that politics was responsive to the needs of African-Americans then it would increase. That's a contribution that Obama has already made, mobilize the African_American vote.

TheHill.com - Obama and turnout by black voters

Blacks participate. More blacks may or may not participate because of Obama. And, interestingly, if he registers more black voters it probably won't help him.

With regards to economic reparation, that's a bit tricky because IMO, we do not know what would have happened had African-Americans been able to pursue the American Dream. We don't know how many would have succeeded and how many wouldn't have. Economic policy towards the black community should take this into account (plus interest). I don't say that cutting a check cannot be a part of it... it could be a big part of it or maybe not, but I think we should put that up to a vote.

For every 100 people in the US, 77 are white and 12 are black and you want to put it to a vote? You think "should we pay blacks because 4 generations ago america condoned slavery?" is going to pass?

Blacks will give more of a shit when the nation as a whole shows some interest in our fate... hence: reparations.

Reparations like you've been discussing (except for the check) are already in place, so all that's left is cutting a check. The day the govt cuts a check to every black person in the US is the day racism PEAKS, not begins to subside.

You said "Deal?" yes question.

The deal is insufficient to fix the problem.

And cutting a check will only exacerbate it.

[DosEquis]

Blacks will get farther if they stop playing the race card. Inner city schools are underfunded, thus education suffers. People need to say "hey we are not getting our funding.. this is fucked up and our education system is really suffering because of it." Instead people are saying "This is not funded because we are black and it needs to be part of reparations." bla bla bla. It is not funded because money is wasted in other areas.

Racism is still around, will probably always be and from all ethnic groups. Some white people will always hate black people, some black people will always hate white people, some asians will hate mexicans. Racism is not strong enough to make policy anymore. Elected officials on any level, be it city, state, or federal do not sit around "oh, its just black people lets make it a lesser priority". Ironically many of those areas that do complain about a lack of education funding 'because they are black' are typically represented by a black person in government. If they are not black you can bet your ass the person who is in government promised to do something about things like education funding, they just haven't done it and haven't been held accountable.

The issue is our government is fundamentally broken in the way it spends money. We had a 30 million dollar earmark for a pedestrian bridge to go from downtown omaha to the casinos in council bluffs. Thats 30 million that if you stood up in front of congress and said "hey, can we put this 30 million toward new text books instead of a bridge to casinos?" ... im sure you'd get more yes than no.

I most certainly disagree with underfunding something for race reasons, but I equally disagree with funding something because of race reasons. We need to fund it because it needs funding regardless of race. There are people of every race in these inner city schools that are affected.

[chriswallace112]

7960, Just because the gov'ts role in discrimination has ended (a good thing) doesn't mean that the long term effects have subsided. The government must address this.

To deny service on a whim... that gets kind of tricky... but I would agree with you only insofar as I believe that we all have the right to property and as long as no one's rights are violated.

If reparations means America's taking it from behind. What do you call centuries of slavery for Africans and African-Americans?

About the whole "line." African-Americans were forced to be at the back for most of this country's history. I guess that's just too bad. If we arbitrarily put people in the back, why not arbitrarily put them in front? Of course, this is not fair and shouldn't be the practice. I would like there to be conditions that make it more feasible for them to stand on their own since so much of a burden has been put on their backs.

Should African-Americans take advantage of the programs that exist instead of squandering our opportunity? Absolutely. But again, my point is not opportunity, my point is that we were forcibly pushed back, then allowed to enter the race at a great disadvantage. Negative plus zero is still negative.

Government protecting your house? And the ghetto too? Sounds like they have a vested interest in the survival and the prosperity of its people... naw... can't be... anarchy for all. (Some of my more radical friends will say that when the military surrounds your house the guns point out, and when its a black person's they point in.)

How to make someone care can be difficult... but some first steps is a responsive government, fixing past injustices, and investing in the weaker segments of the economy (especially those made purposely weaker).

"but but they're turning to drugs" is a fact... whether you think it's an emotional point or not... it's still a fact. So how do we deal with the root cause of crime and drugs? Do we ignore the reasons behind black poverty, which are black culture (which we need to work on) and institutionalized discrimination?

About the reasons for crime and drugs. Many of these points are correct. Indeed, shitty parenting and laziness may be causes, but then that would affect all races similarly. It doesn't. When there is no safety net afforded by generations of economic development, crime indeed is an easy way out, and because of the anti-establishment character of the urban black community it is the best way out... because we can't trust the powers that be. What if this paranoid mindset was turned around by saying "hey, America takes responsibility for its actions, come join in society as equals?" That would go a long way.

I understand that government probably shouldn't be involved in morality... maybe they can help churches though... it's just an idea.

I will not mind putting it up for a vote even if it fails... I am not trying to impose my view of justice on the general public... but I would like to be able to make a case. Personally, I think Obama has the best chance of presenting it in a thoughtful way without being branded as a radical.

I don't think that these programs have been effective, we need to go back to the drawing board. If cutting a check is what works... then hey, let's start signing them.

[chriswallace112]

DosEquis, entire generations were denied quality education and participation in the economy and in politics just because they were black. Black children today suffer because of this foundation created by racism. Why can't we just give the black community a meaningful boost so that they can catch up? If race was never an issue... then truly I would be playing the race card... but since race was the hammer used against us, it frames American history, so we have to talk about it... it's the elephant in the room. At the very least, reparations need to start in the classrooms... even if administered to all suffering schools, because proportionally, a greater number will be in historically neglected black communities. I think most Americans will agree that giving assistance to poorly funded schools is the right thing to do... else we will lag in world standards of education forever.

[7960]

Originally Posted by chriswallace112

7960, Just because the gov'ts role in discrimination has ended (a good thing) doesn't mean that the long term effects have subsided. The government must address this.

No, the govt hasn't been involved in it for upwards of 50 years. Having the govt "address this" would be getting them BACK in the discrimination game. The only things they *must* do are keep the govt neutral and stay the fuck out of the private sector.

If reparations means America's taking it from behind. What do you call centuries of slavery for Africans and African-Americans?

I call it "the way it was."

About the whole "line." African-Americans were forced to be at the back for most of this country's history. I guess that's just too bad.

Yes, it is. Next?

If we arbitrarily put people in the back, why not arbitrarily put them in front?

Because then you'd be advocating the exact same kind of racism you're bitching about in this thread.

I would like there to be conditions that make it more feasible for them to stand on their own since so much of a burden has been put on their backs.

There is no more of a burden on your back TODAY because of slavery than there is on mine because my ancestors were beaten, killed, and generally left to fend for themselves more than 100 years ago.

....my point is that we were forcibly pushed back, then allowed to enter the race at a great disadvantage. Negative plus zero is still negative.

Way to try to make an intelligent sounding argument......and fail. Ignoring that you weren't pushed back, if you were pushed back that's a negative but then all the programs that were put in place are a positive (not zero) so you're getting benefits I didn't. Again, way to advocate racism against me.

Government protecting your house? And the ghetto too? Sounds like they have a vested interest in the survival and the prosperity of its people... naw... can't be... anarchy for all.

Like I said, they're protecting harlem just as much as they're protecting me.

(Some of my more radical friends will say that when the military surrounds your house the guns point out, and when its a black person's they point in.)

Maybe blacks should stop committing a disproportionate amount of crime.

.... institutionalized discrimination?

Govt discrimination needs to end, and hey, lookie there, it did! Private discrimination by individuals or private institutions shouldn't even be addressed.

About the reasons for crime and drugs. Many of these points are correct. Indeed, shitty parenting and laziness may be causes, but then that would affect all races similarly.

That's quite the assumption you've got there.

70% of black babies are born to single mothers. Black infant death is on the RISE. Birth weights are down. More black babies are being born addicted. The list goes on and on...........why aren't those statistics reflected across every race?

What if this paranoid mindset was turned around by saying "hey, America takes responsibility for its actions, come join in society as equals?" That would go a long way.

We tried that. It created welfare states. My wife was a social worker in Massachusetts.........she's seen it first hand. And when Mass cut what they were paying for welfare entire neighborhoods up and left, literally overnight, headed to the next best place for welfare (NY at the time).

I understand that government probably shouldn't be involved in morality... maybe they can help churches though... it's just an idea.

The only thing govt should NOT get involved more with than private individuals is the church.

I don't think that these programs have been effective, we need to go back to the drawing board. If cutting a check is what works... then hey, let's start signing them.

Again, I'll be more than happy to pay my share. But don't get pissed when anyone you know who gets a monthly check or has points added to his firefighter exam or steps to the front of the university admission line all the sudden starts bitching that they're not getting jobs or college grants because they're now expected to compete just like everyone else.