Socialism

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by jimeigh

holy shit i didn't know we has so many socialists on here

Come on, there is only 2 of us.

[7960]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Venezuelans aren't jailed ... for opposing government.

negative.

Police detained an opposition leader, Oscar Perez, Wednesday afternoon as he came from a meeting to organize another protest for this weekend.

"I don't know under what criteria they are detaining me," Perez (said)
FOXNews.com - Venezuelan Opposition Leader Demands Hugo Chavez Free Jailed Protesters - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News

Caracas, Venezuela - A Venezuelan labour leader who organized a strike against President Hugo Chavez three years ago was sentenced on Tuesday to nearly 16 years in prison after a trial critics said was political persecution.
IOL: Anti-Chavez union boss jailed in Venezuela

Beginning this month journalists or other independent activists accused by the government of the sort of offenses alleged by Izarra can be jailed without due process and sentenced to up to 30 years.
Chavez's Censorship (washingtonpost.com)

In Cuba there many debates about government policy, students were even seen on TV here in the UK openly criticising policy and suggesting how it ought to be changed.

Hmm...since the govt only allows "out" what it wants seen, I wonder how those students got on tv to "openly" criticize cuban govt.

What people are jailed for is being CIA agents and links to terrorism.

You think the CIA is sending agents to cuba?

[7960]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

What did Churchill say about Socialism? Something like, if you're 20 and not a socialist, you're selfish; if you're 40 and a socialist, you're an idiot.

I don't remember the exact quote, it was something like that

If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.

[7960]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

I support equal access to healthcare. Not a multi tier class system. You can't pay to be seen quicker. You can't pay to choose where treated. Infact you cant pay for anything exact what goes through the tax system.

That is equal access.

There are countries that have that system.

And the US is happy to take money from their rich so they can be seen by good doctors in a timely manner.

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by 7960

negative.

Police detained an opposition leader, Oscar Perez, Wednesday afternoon as he came from a meeting to organize another protest for this weekend.

"I don't know under what criteria they are detaining me," Perez (said)

I could maybe take that seriously if they at least gave a quote from the government. How are we supposed to know the reason, if they don't even ask ? Typical half assed journalism from Fox.

Originally Posted by 7960

Caracas, Venezuela - A Venezuelan labour leader who organized a strike against President Hugo Chavez three years ago was sentenced on Tuesday to nearly 16 years in prison after a trial critics said was political persecution.

Okay, so you think those who take part in a coup against the democratically elected government should just go free ? There should be no justice ? I would be surprised if so.

This is hardly jailing people for simply opposing the government. This is jailing people for attempting to overthrow democracy, kidnap the president and taking part in the events that led to 20 people being killed.

Originally Posted by 7960

Beginning this month journalists or other independent activists accused by the government of the sort of offenses alleged by Izarra can be jailed without due process and sentenced to up to 30 years.
Chavez's Censorship (washingtonpost.com)

This was written 3 years ago and what it claims would happen has not. Need i say anymore ?

Originally Posted by 7960

Hmm...since the govt only allows "out" what it wants seen, I wonder how those students got on tv to "openly" criticize cuban govt.

So you think it was just a ploy to make us believe that there is debate within Cuba ? You think that the communist party, some students and the BBC conducted a cunning plan to fool us all ?

Originally Posted by 7960

You think the CIA is sending agents to cuba?

What i find funny is you believe they don't. The US also trains anti cuban terrorists at the school of the americas. They harbor mass murdering anti Cuban terrorists, yet you believe they are incapable of sending CIA agents. They don't even need to send agents in, Cubans in contact with CIA backed exiles in Miami are enough.

[7960]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

[7960] I could maybe take that seriously if they at least gave a quote from the government. How are we supposed to know the reason, if they don't even ask ? Typical half assed journalism from Fox.

You meant "from Associated Press" right? Because it was Fox's website but AP wrote the story.



Next time maybe you'll address the message rather than the messanger.

Okay, so you think those who take part in a coup against the democratically elected government should just go free ? There should be no justice ? I would be surprised if so.

He organized a strike, not a coup.

This is hardly jailing people for simply opposing the government.

Yes it is.

This was written 3 years ago and what it claims would happen has not. Need i say anymore ?

He has shut down TV stations and is continuing to do it for no reason other than he doesn't like what they're saying.

Venezuela's Chavez widens attack on opposition media | Reuters

So you think it was just a ploy to make us believe that there is debate within Cuba ? You think that the communist party, some students and the BBC conducted a cunning plan to fool us all ?

It hurts finding out you're the fool, doesn't it.

They harbor mass murdering anti Cuban terrorists,

Prove it.

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by 7960

You meant "from Associated Press" right? Because it was Fox's website but AP wrote the story.



Next time maybe you'll address the message rather than the messanger.

I would adress the message if they asked the authorities or government their side of the story. As they did not it can only count as biased propaganda.

Originally Posted by 7960

He organized a strike, not a coup.

Yes it is.

He organised the April strike that was coordinated with the coup.

Originally Posted by 7960

He has shut down TV stations and is continuing to do it for no reason other than he doesn't like what they're saying.

No he didn't. He simply did not renew the license of RCTV. Do you know anything about RCTV? I suggest not. RCTV are the main station who acted as a springboard for the coup. They manipulated footage and worked in coordination with the coup plotters. They knowingly lied to the public in order to provoke the coup. They actually called for the people to overthrow the government. If they had done this in the US not only would they be pulled straight of the air, they would have been executed. Instead in Venezuela they are still on the air on cable TV.

Originally Posted by 7960

It hurts finding out you're the fool, doesn't it.

Sounds like your speaking from experience.

Originally Posted by 7960

Prove it.

So am i to guess you have never heard of Orlando Bosch ? Luis Posada Carriles?

These are two men who bombed a passenger jet. Of all the criminals for the US to protect this is full of irony.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Well how do you evaluate quality of life ? It is going to depend on your measurements. I do not accept measurements like how much you earn or how much you own. I accept measurements like access to healthcare and equality of education. These would be most fundamental of measueres.

I certainly think being free to make your own decisions is a large part of it. Free to speak about the subjects you wish, pursue the career you want, purchase the items you want

Also not being killed by the government for disagreeing with their policies is another big one.

Access to quality health care and education are also important, I agree.. and I don't see one area where the Soviet Union trumps the US. If you want to say equality, then perhaps, but certainly the level of quality everyone received was poorer than the average here in the US

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Of course things like microwaves are not too dangerous.

What you have to remember is Cuba is a planned economy. They have very limited capital of which to manage. This means making tough decisions, decisions we in the west really take for granted. They must decide whether to pay doctors, buy medicine, hire teachers, build schools, create scocial housing or limit that and buy in more what are in essence luxury items.

Now we may say how horrible, they can't have a microwave. However, wouldn't it be more horrible if we had to say, they don't have access to a doctor ? They aren't being educated, many live homeless or don't have a job ?

With that perspective surely we must say they are doing the right thing.

The same can be said for computers, while computers are again something we take for granted, given the choice of having a doctor or a computer, having a home or internet connection, the choice becomes a no brainer.

And you think that you're not smart enough to make those tough decisions for yourself, and the Cuban people aren't either?

They need someone else to decide for them, why? Part of becoming an adult is taking control over your life through making decisions for yourself without needing the permission of anyone, certainly not a government bureaucrat who's never met them and thinks he knows better than the individual to make the decision.

When you say "We take for granted.." it really exposes a giant flaw in your reasoning for liking the Cuban system so much.

It concedes the point that those things (paying doctors, buying medicine, hiring teachers, building schools, creating public housing) would already take place without a government bureaucrat controlling every aspect of those decisions.

In the US we have public schools, public housing, social programs like medicare and medicaid to help take care of people who are unable to provide for themselves, and the quality of medical care you can receive here is some of the best in the world.

It would be horrible if they didn't have access to a doctor, but it's extremely unlike that would be the case in any civil society. I have tons of problems with the way our health care system is set up and I don't think the market provides the ultimate solution by itself, but the quality of care you can receive is pretty much second to none.

Even in a society where the rich receive better health care, the poor are still able to go into an emergency room if they're sick and need care and have an emergency, there's "urgent care" clinics all around the country that provide cheap or free health care to the poor

And of course, there's public education available to those who want it instead of (or because they can't afford) private education.

You've already conceded we take those things for granted because they'd happen without government interference, so your conclusion that they have to make a choice between things like a microwave and a doctor is really a false choice.

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Other countries with a similar GDP to Cuba may have the freedom to own a computer, but in reality can anyone really afford it ? More importantly do they have all the social provisions the Cuba people do ? I think the answers are obvious.

What good are those social provisions if you have no freedom to make decisions for yourself in your own life? If your life is controlled by the state to such a degree as it is in Cuba?

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

What did Churchill say about Socialism? Something like, if you're 20 and not a socialist, you're selfish; if you're 40 and a socialist, you're an idiot.

I don't remember the exact quote, it was something like that

It's something like if you're not a liberal when you're young, you have no heart, if you're not a conservative when you're old, you have no mind.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Venezuelans aren't jailed or killed for opposing government. A quick glance at Venezuelan TV or newspapers would confirm this.

You're wrong:

Venezuelan opposition leader demands release of jailed protesters

CARACAS, Venezuela: A top opponent of President Hugo Chavez demanded the release of jailed protesters Wednesday as university students poured into the streets for a third day to protest the removal of a leading opposition TV station from the air.

Former presidential candidate Manuel Rosales said protests over the government's move to halt the broadcasts of Radio Caracas Television show that "freedom cannot be negotiated nor bargained."

Protesters have filled the capital's plazas and streets since the opposition-aligned channel went off the air at midnight Sunday. Chavez refused to renew its broadcast license, and police have clashed with angry crowds hurling rocks and bottles.

A total of 182 people — mostly university students and minors — have been detained in nearly 100 protests since Sunday, Justice Minister Pedro Carreno said late Tuesday. At least 30 were charged with violent acts, prosecutors said, but it was unclear how many remained behind bars.

...

Although the march was generally peaceful, there were several small scuffles between students and "Chavistas" who approached the demonstrators, jeering and shouting insults.

On Tuesday, Chavez warned he might crack down on the privately owned Globovision TV station.

Venezuelan opposition leader demands release of jailed protesters - International Herald Tribune

And sorry, but you wont find many here who are going to believe Venezuelan state run media which runs pro-Chavez country over a free press who can report on the issues without risk of retaliation.

Venezuela replaces opposition TV with state network

CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuela shut down an opposition television channel on Monday and replaced it with one promoting President Hugo Chavez's self-proclaimed socialist revolution in a move widely criticized as a threat to democracy.

...

"This has exposed the abusive, arbitrary and autocratic nature of Chavez's government, a government that fears free thought, that fears opinion and fears criticism," said Marcel Granier, chief of RCTV, the country's oldest broadcaster.

Venezuela replaces opposition TV with state network | Reuters

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

And Sarkozy can remain in office indefinately, so can Gordon Brown, where is the outrage ? That is democracy, if the people wish them to remain in office, they remain in office.

I simply do not accept that Venezuelans are any less deserving of full democracy than Brits, French or Australians. Infact most countries in the world don't have term limits. The US is in the minority along with most of Latin America. We could easily say that Latin America only has this due to the history of US domination on the region. Having term limits certainly hasn't helped them so far.

I've already said I'm for term limits. Aside from that, though, the position Sarkozy and Brown have aren't capable of (nor do they desire, as Chavez does) the kind of centralized power with no opposition to their authority.

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

At first glance i find that argument convincing. However, look at George Bush 2nd term. Do you really believe he has been doing what is in your best interest because he isn't up for another election? It seems instead that he is throwing caution to the wind simply because he is not up for re-election. If he was up for re-election he arguably would be pulling out of Iraq, closing GITMO, talking to people in Iran rather than threatening them, Right now he can get away with not doing this because he has no one to answer to.

He does have someone to answer to, unfortunately they aren't doing their job. Our opposition party (The Democrats) have been too spineless to prosecute him for his breaking of the law and violating the Constitution.. or assert the authority our Constitution gives them as an equal branch of government.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

I am familiar with it. Though i don't quite get the selfish part. I would say if you're a capitalist you're selfish. That would be much more apdt.

I think you'll find most of the libertarians we have here think selfishness is a virtue.. If everyone acts in their own best interests, everyone prospers (or something to that effect)

lew or thewise1 or some other Ayn Rand-er can explain it better than I can

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by motivez

You're wrong:

The "evidence" you provided does not prove that, not one bit.

Originally Posted by motivez

And sorry, but you wont find many here who are going to believe Venezuelan state run media which runs pro-Chavez country over a free press who can report on the issues without risk of retaliation.

I am actually baffled as to why you would re-post a topic i have already batted out of the park. I will repeat myself. RCTV was not shut down. It's terrestrial TV license was not renewed. This was because it took part in the coup in 2002. This is fact. In the US they would be executed, in Venezuela they can broadcast on cable tv. There is your freedom. More freedom than they deserve.

Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez' followers staged a demonstration outside the headquarters of Caracas-based TV network RCTV to endorse the Venezuelan Government decision not to renew the broadcasting license to the country's oldest private TV channel upon expiration next May

http://www.gkcaracas.um.dk/da/menu/E...tBeRenewed.htm

Last December, Venezuela’s President Hugo Chavez had announced that the country’s largest television network, RCTV, would not have its broadcast license renewed because of its past support for efforts to overthrow the government and its continuous violations of the country’s broadcast regulations.

Supreme Court Allows RCTV Case to Proceed, but Station Must Go off Air | venezuelanalysis.com

And you can criticise state tv all you like and i often criticise the BBC (state tv) but it is 10x better than any "independant" news i have seen here or from the US.

[motivez]

They were jailed for protesting Chavez and some decision he made, I think it proves it pretty conclusively..

The fact that they're no longer allowed to broadcast because they don't have a license vs being shut down is semantics, the point was that you were saying "Just look at Venezuelan TV!" .. but it's a state run channel with a pro-Chavez agenda.. why would we believe anything they have to say? They aren't independent of the government.. they ARE the government.

The BBC doesn't have the same restrictions in place that Venezuelan state run television has, so it's not really a valid comparison IMO.. there's a difference between state financed and state run, see NPR or PBS for US examples of publicly funded news.. both are excellent sources of information, but don't have a pro-Bush agenda and aren't restricted from reporting negatively on the actions of the government, which having a pro-[Leader] agenda obviously entails.

But, things like Reuters, the AP, and so forth are good examples that counter your assertion.

[7960]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

In the US they would be executed,

This is the 2nd time you've said this and it's just flat out wrong, but you're so quick to throw up the "BIASED PROPAGANDA!" flag on arguments others make.

Originally Posted by motivez

But, things like Reuters, the AP, and so forth are good examples that counter your assertion.

Apparently not if the article appears on a Fox website. I linked an AP article but the URL had foxnews in it so he dismissed it.