Cuban Solidarity

[Joe Castro]

The achievements of the Cuban revolution never cease to amaze. The proportion of human resources Cuba shares with the world must be completely without rival. It is things like this that remind us why Nelson Mandela shunned the capitalist world on release from prison and made his first visit abroad be a visit to Cuba to meet Fidel.

MORE than 100,000 Cuban specialists and technicians have provided services in cooperation with Africa over the last 45 years, it was reported on Wednesday at the 13th International Seminar on Current Problems in Africa and the Middle East held in Havana.

Representatives of Cuba’s Ministry for Foreign Investment and Economic Cooperation informed delegates at the event, held in the Casa de Africa in Old Havana, that Cuba has provided that cooperation for the benefit of millions of people.

Likewise, it has assisted countries facing problems such as illiteracy, famine, preventable and curable diseases, low birth weight babies and underweight children, and high infant and maternal mortality rates, along with nations with citizens who are part of the more than 29 million people infected with HIV/AIDS.

Cuban internationalists have built bridges, roads, schools, hospitals, factories, and laboratories, and have taught new techniques for planting, protecting forests, raising and managing animals and promoting the fishing industry, ministry representatives explained.

They said one milestone in this field over this period was the almost 34,000 African students who have graduated from Cuban schools, while Cuban medical collaboration has been and continues to be the largest, most stable and most present in Africa.

As an example, they explained that from 1999 to 2007, more than 857,000 human lives have been saved through the Comprehensive Health Program; likewise, more than 36.29 million medical consultations have been made, more than 626,000 surgeries had been performed and 549,826 births had been attended.

Last year, Cuba carried out 211 cooperation projects in 52 African countries, and that contribution was made on the basis of the principles of solidarity, internationalism and with a high degree of humanism, they explained.

Marcelino dos Santos, a member of the Central Committee of the Mozambique Liberation Front Party (FRELIMO), noted that June 25 was his country’s Independence Day, thanked the Cuban people for their solidarity and cooperation with African

granma.cu - More than 100,000 Cubans provided civilian aid in African countries

[Ardentfrost]

You do realize that Cuba uses their state-run medical facilities and personnel to generate revenue from other countries that need the healthcare, right? And because of that, Cuban citizens often get turned away.

Let's not regale Cuba as what we should want out of our societies when they don't even want what they have (except, of course, the people who are in a position to have stuff... which isn't many). Even their own government has realized increasingly that they can't control everything, and have opened the doors to more and more privately owned businesses (a 300% increase in privately employed citizens over the past 15 years).

Don't get me wrong. I have no ill will toward Cuba and I wish the US would stop the silly and pointless embargo so the Cubans can more easily get the food to feed their people. But I'm not going to sit here and let you claim Cuba has the answers when those people are in a shitty situation.

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

You do realize that Cuba uses their state-run medical facilities and personnel to generate revenue from other countries that need the healthcare, right?

Of course. One of the best deals Cuba has made is to swap medical services for Venezuelan oil.

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

And because of that, Cuban citizens often get turned away.

I don't think that is quite accurate. Cuba has the highest doctors per capita in the world. They are a third world country where life expectancy is at a first world level. Infact people in Cuba can expect to live 10 years longer than those in my own city, a city in a country with either the fourth or fifth largest economy in the world.

Less children die at birth in Cuba than in the largest economy in the world - the United States. These are tremendous achievements. So to imply that Cubans are somehow recieving less than adequate health care to me is quite unfair. If rich countries like mine and yours put half the proportion of our resources into healthcare that Cuba do, the breakthroughs that could be achieved are beyond comprehension.

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Let's not regale Cuba as what we should want out of our societies when they don't even want what they have (except, of course, the people who are in a position to have stuff... which isn't many).

Well i'm not quite sure what you mean here. We are in no position to say what Cubans want, we cannot read their minds.

What i will say is the idea of wanting "stuff" is really what is the wrong with the world. It is this commodity fetishism that is a cancer on the people of the world. Us in the west are so consumed with the desire to own and to have things so much we forget about the basics of life - dignity, respect, health, education. These are things the Cuban people have in abundance and this could never been achieved without the revolution.

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Even their own government has realized increasingly that they can't control everything, and have opened the doors to more and more privately owned businesses (a 300% increase in privately employed citizens over the past 15 years).

There certainly is truth in what you say here. I won't dispute the point. My belief is that Cuba perhaps did too much too soon. This is something that could actually havebeen learned from the early days of the Bolshevik revolution when Lenin had to take two steps back in order to move forward. It is an issue Lenin wrote at depth on. A communist society can only emerge after a capitalist society has existed and been transformed into a socialist one. From there the steps to communism can be taken. Cuba like the USSR went from being a broadly peasant nation straight to communism, or certainly state socialism.

It is arguable that without the USSR Cuba has to now go back, develop state capitalism with a strong social policy, then move to state socialism. In a way it may need to emulate China, provided that China will take the move back to state socialism in the future, all be it this is a debatable issue.

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Don't get me wrong. I have no ill will toward Cuba and I wish the US would stop the silly and pointless embargo so the Cubans can more easily get the food to feed their people. But I'm not going to sit here and let you claim Cuba has the answers when those people are in a shitty situation.

I'm not saying Cuba is perfect, no state is. What is great about Cuba though, unlike so many is they have their priorities right - the well being of the masses and the right to the most fundamental things of life.

[Ardentfrost]

Too much too fast? They held on to more than 90% of the business in Cuba for 30 years. Only since the early 80's has there been a push back to privatization.

And I was saying the Cuba is separated into haves and have nots (whereas America is largely have and have mores). People who prove themselves as staunch Communists and support the current level of government may be able to squeeze themselves into a position of power and then they have access to Cuba's "stuff" (meaning money, food, healthcare, etc...). But largely the country is comprised of people who have to live by the food ration and work their industrial or agrarian jobs with no means or ability to better themselves. Although they have had a drastic increase in service-related jobs over the past 20 years.

And I dunno about your assessment of their people getting healthcare. They have a fairly prevalent black market health care system.... I guess if you count that

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Too much too fast? They held on to more than 90% of the business in Cuba for 30 years. Only since the early 80's has there been a push back to privatization.

That is exactly my point. They should have moved more slowly to socialism. They should have been more business friendly, at least to small business. They tried to go from an almost peasant nation to a communist one, they totally missed out the capitalist stage of transition. They should have had an NEP type policy at least.

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

And I was saying the Cuba is separated into haves and have nots (whereas America is largely have and have mores). People who prove themselves as staunch Communists and support the current level of government may be able to squeeze themselves into a position of power and then they have access to Cuba's "stuff" (meaning money, food, healthcare, etc...). But largely the country is comprised of people who have to live by the food ration and work their industrial or agrarian jobs with no means or ability to better themselves. Although they have had a drastic increase in service-related jobs over the past 20 years.

I wouldnt say there is haves and have nots. There are haves and have slightly more. They all have the basics for life - no other country of similar GDP on the planet can make this claim. That is a triumph however you look at it.

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

And I dunno about your assessment of their people getting healthcare. They have a fairly prevalent black market health care system.... I guess if you count that

Well i believe the statistics on things like life expectancy and infant mortallity clear show that Cubans must have an incredibly good access to healthcare.

Life expectancy and infant mortallity are two of the fundamental measures of a states health and in both Cuba ranks among first world states and outperforms many regions in these states and actually some of the states as a whole.

I don't think Cuba is perfect, it is not some kind of utopia, but they do a damn good job of allocating what little resources they have.

[Rouger2]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Of course. One of the best deals Cuba has made is to swap medical services for Venezuelan oil.



I don't think that is quite accurate. Cuba has the highest doctors per capita in the world. They are a third world country where life expectancy is at a first world level. Infact people in Cuba can expect to live 10 years longer than those in my own city, a city in a country with either the fourth or fifth largest economy in the world.

Less children die at birth in Cuba than in the largest economy in the world - the United States. These are tremendous achievements. So to imply that Cubans are somehow recieving less than adequate health care to me is quite unfair. If rich countries like mine and yours put half the proportion of our resources into healthcare that Cuba do, the breakthroughs that could be achieved are beyond comprehension.

Well i'm not quite sure what you mean here. We are in no position to say what Cubans want, we cannot read their minds.

What i will say is the idea of wanting "stuff" is really what is the wrong with the world. It is this commodity fetishism that is a cancer on the people of the world. Us in the west are so consumed with the desire to own and to have things so much we forget about the basics of life - dignity, respect, health, education. These are things the Cuban people have in abundance and this could never been achieved without the revolution.



There certainly is truth in what you say here. I won't dispute the point. My belief is that Cuba perhaps did too much too soon. This is something that could actually havebeen learned from the early days of the Bolshevik revolution when Lenin had to take two steps back in order to move forward. It is an issue Lenin wrote at depth on. A communist society can only emerge after a capitalist society has existed and been transformed into a socialist one. From there the steps to communism can be taken. Cuba like the USSR went from being a broadly peasant nation straight to communism, or certainly state socialism.

It is arguable that without the USSR Cuba has to now go back, develop state capitalism with a strong social policy, then move to state socialism. In a way it may need to emulate China, provided that China will take the move back to state socialism in the future, all be it this is a debatable issue.




I'm not saying Cuba is perfect, no state is. What is great about Cuba though, unlike so many is they have their priorities right - the well being of the masses and the right to the most fundamental things of life.

Their is a little book called animal farm give it a read.

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by Rouger2

Their is a little book called animal farm give it a read.

what a great book

"communism doesn't work, let me explain this with farm animals"

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by Rouger2

Their is a little book called animal farm give it a read.

What a wonderful argument you present

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

I wouldnt say there is haves and have nots. There are haves and have slightly more. They all have the basics for life - no other country of similar GDP on the planet can make this claim. That is a triumph however you look at it.

You wouldn't call them haves and have nots? When you set a baseline minimum of what people can have, the people that have only that are have nots. Cuba sets a food ration, for instance. If that's all the food you can afford, you're a have not. While that makes up the far majority of the population, you then have the people who are government officials and favored by the governing body through whom all the money must pass. Those are the people who get more... the haves.

You outline a society in which no one needs anything, but as with all socialist/communist bodies, that translates into a society in which no one HAS anything. Those with ambition tear the front door off their house and float to Florida.

Well i believe the statistics on things like life expectancy and infant mortallity clear show that Cubans must have an incredibly good access to healthcare.

Life expectancy and infant mortallity are two of the fundamental measures of a states health and in both Cuba ranks among first world states and outperforms many regions in these states and actually some of the states as a whole.

I'll not fault you here. They have spent a lot of money to make sure they have a solid health care system as far as abilities go (as in, they can take care of problems). That has made them a good deal of money in foreign countries. And certainly they realize that when a woman is pregnant, there is a period of time that is vitally important that they get good care. America has that too, it's called Medicaid. Both countries taking a similar stance on that newborn issue is probably why infant mortality rates between the two countries are very similar (statistically insignificant difference).

However, no healthcare system can see all the citizens all the time. And Cuba takes on the problems of other countries to boot (for compensation, of course)! This is why you have a prevalent black market health care system in Cuba, as well as the administration of "alternative" medicines. Additionally, to try to stop people from overcrowding their hospitals, Cuba has created radio and TV programs on how to alleviate common ailments such as upset stomachs and headaches.

No country can handle a free completely socialized healthcare system. The system gets bogged down with people and it becomes difficult to help the people who are in more need of help.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

What a wonderful argument you present

Have you read it? If not, it's understandable why you might dismiss his comment, but it's pretty on point as a response.

[leviathon]

Originally Posted by motivez

Have you read it? If not, it's understandable why you might dismiss his comment, but it's pretty on point as a response.

I've read it and looked at in detail, but it is a criticism of the USSR and in part communism, not socialism. it also works on the assumption that snowball will always be weaker than Napoleon, and that Old major will die. It's far too specified a criticism to attack effectively all of communism and socialism.

[Rouger2]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

What a wonderful argument you present

You have to actually think to get the powerful message that book gives you.

[Rouger2]

Originally Posted by leviathon

I've read it and looked at in detail, but it is a criticism of the USSR and in part communism, not socialism. it also works on the assumption that snowball will always be weaker than Napoleon, and that Old major will die. It's far too specified a criticism to attack effectively all of communism and socialism.

I think the books comment on human nature is universal and it is right on in its comment on what you call revolutionary socialism.

[motivez]

It's not as though Cuba is the only country that provides medical services to other countries. My aunt and her surgical unit traveled all over South America to perform medical procedures and provide basic health care to children who wouldn't have otherwise had it, and it's not like her team was the only one.

American generosity is unrivaled throughout the world. We're the largest source of humanitarian aid on the planet. Props to us capitalist pigs where props are due, please.

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by motivez

It's not as though Cuba is the only country that provides medical services to other countries. My aunt and her surgical unit traveled all over South America to perform medical procedures and provide basic health care to children who wouldn't have otherwise had it, and it's not like her team was the only one.

American generosity is unrivaled throughout the world. We're the largest source of humanitarian aid on the planet. Props to us capitalist pigs where props are due, please.

Well it is quite easy for the largest economy on the planet to share resources. However, it is not so easy for a third world country, yet Cuba still for a while managed to provide more medical assistance to the third world than the entire WHO.

[motivez]

Do you think those resources would have been better spent on the Cuban population?

And sure it's easier for the US than a country where the average income and quality of life are low enough that people don't really have extra money to give, but I'm talking about private donations, not simply charity from the government in our case.

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by motivez

Do you think those resources would have been better spent on the Cuban population?

And sure it's easier for the US than a country where the average income and quality of life are low enough that people don't really have extra money to give, but I'm talking about private donations, not simply charity from the government in our case.

He's making you think something that isn't true. Cuba sent in their medical teams, but they also get monetary gain from it. Cuba has a substantial medical export, they often work FOR the WHO or other countries who don't have the abilities but need the services. Cuba's economy is even some 50% based on service now, whereas some 20 years ago it was very agrarian and industry-based

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

He's making you think something that isn't true. Cuba sent in their medical teams, but they also get monetary gain from it. Cuba has a substantial medical export, they often work FOR the WHO or other countries who don't have the abilities but need the services. Cuba's economy is even some 50% based on service now, whereas some 20 years ago it was very agrarian and industry-based

I have already said they do that, the Venezuelan example for instance. So i am not making him think anything false. More often than not it is medical aid Cuba provides, not a paid medical service. An example of this has been in Nicuragua where they recently performed their 25,000th free eye surgery.