Canadian court overturns father's grounding of 12-year-old daughter

motivez · 07-01-2008, 10:13 AM

OTTAWA (AFP) — A Canadian court has lifted a 12-year-old girl's grounding, overturning her father's punishment for disobeying his orders to stay off the Internet, his lawyer said Wednesday.

The girl had taken her father to Quebec Superior Court after he refused to allow her to go on a school trip for chatting on websites he tried to block, and then posting "inappropriate" pictures of herself online using a friend's computer.

The father's lawyer Kim Beaudoin said the disciplinary measures were for the girl's "own protection" and is appealing the ruling.

"She's a child," Beaudoin told AFP. "At her age, children test their limits and it's up to their parents to set boundaries."

"I started an appeal of the decision today to reestablish parental authority, and to ensure that this case doesn't set a precedent," she said. Otherwise, said Beaudoin, "parents are going to be walking on egg shells from now on."

"I think most children respect their parents and would never go so far as to take them to court, but it's clear that some would and we have to ask ourselves how far this will go."

According to court documents, the girl's Internet transgression was just the latest in a string of broken house rules. Even so, Justice Suzanne Tessier found her punishment too severe.

Beaudoin noted the girl used a court-appointed lawyer in her parents' 10-year custody dispute to launch her landmark case against dear old dad.

AFP: Court overturns father's grounding of 12-year-old

Seems like this is a gigantic over reach in the scope of what a court should be involved in?

I don't know that children should be allowed to take their parents to court for things like this. I mean, in the case of abuse and whatnot some third party should be able to represent the child's interests.. but in this case it was a grounding because she repeatedly broke the rules her father had in place.

The punishment of not going on a trip is obviously designed to teach her a lesson that rules have to be followed, if she can't learn that at such a young age, when will she?

I think this should be overturned on appeal, but it's interesting because the mother and the father apparently share custody, and didn't agree on the punishment.. so maybe it wont be.

I have my suspicions that this court would never have overturned the grounding had it been the mother's punishment.

motivez · 07-01-2008, 10:18 AM

Here's a more detailed story:

A 12-year-old Quebec girl who felt so strongly about her end-of-year school trip that she took her father to court after he forbade her from going is at the centre of a case that challenges the authority of parental discipline.

The extreme measure of taking the case to court, which the girl's lawyer defended as a necessary move to ensure the child was not denied a significant rite of passage, was upheld by the judge in a surprise ruling last week.

"This was something that would never happen again in the child's life," said Lucie Fortin, the lawyer for the girl, who cannot be named.

"And for me that was really important, because it was the end of elementary school, it was the end of a stage in her life."

Ms. Fortin insists that while court was a last resort, the situation called for it: "This was not a question of going to the movies or not, or going online or not -- because obviously, I wouldn't have intervened in that," she said.

Critics of the decision last week by a Quebec Superior Court which ruled in favour of Ms. Fortin's young client suggest that such a ruling opens the way for equally implausible scenarios such as children taking their parents to court for such things as being denied access to television or using the Internet -- and winning.

"As a lawyer and as a parent, I hink it's state interference where the court shouldn't be interfering," said Ottawa lawyer Fred Cogan. "I've got six kids. I certainly wouldn't want a judge watching over everything that I do, and I wouldn't want my kids being able to run to the judge."

The lawyer acting for the father in this case, who also cannot be named, said she is going to appeal the decision.

"The judge said that this was an exception, but the exception was to go on a field trip!" said lawyer Kim Beaudoin.

"What will be too much punishment? Not going to a dance? I want my boyfriend to sleep at my house and my parents aren't letting me? I want to use Internet and my parents aren't letting me? Where will it stop?"

The ruling to allow the field trip went against the wishes of her father – who has legal custody of her – but was in keeping with her mother's wishes.

And while the case is raising some eyebrows, a tangled behind-the-scenes custody battle must be taken into account, said Montreal family law lawyer, Miriam Grassby.

"It's a very different situation than a child who might appear to not be be happy with the parent's decision and simply saying ‘I'm going to go court and I'm going to get what I want," she said. "And if in fact it's been portrayed that way, it's not putting in its complex context.

While the girl's father has full legal custody, pending a further court decision, the girl has been living with her mother, Ms. Fortin said. But while Ms. Beaudoin says the girl went to live with her mother when her father forbade her from going on the trip, Ms. Fortin contends that she was "kicked out" of her father's house over family tensions.

"In a situation like this where you're in contested custody proceedings, there's often a high level of conflict," said Ms. Grassby. "And one of the reasons that in Quebec that children have lawyers named for them is because the parents and the court recognizes that in high conflict situations it gives the child a safe place to first give their opinion, and get advice."

Others say there are few signs Canadian courts are likely to follow the Quebec court judge's lead.

"Family court judges are sort of loathe and reluctant to enter into the sphere of parental discipline," said Peter Dunning, executive director of the Child Welfare League of Canada.

Cheryl Milne, a lawyer at the Canadian Foundation for Children, Youth and the Law, said the scenario in the Gatineau case may be unique to Quebec because of its civil code. "I can't imagine a similar case being brought in Ontario."

Even in Quebec, the decision is virtually without precedent.

The dispute between father and daughter began when he cut off her Internet access over her misuse. When she continued to find a way to use the Internet, he told his daughter she couldn't go on the three-day school trip.

The girl's mother allowed her to go on the trip, but because the school wouldn't allow the girl to go unless both parents consented, the girl, with the mother's support took legal action against her father.

According to Ms. Beaudoin, the judge ruled that denying the trip was unduly severe punishment.

The father, who is appealing the decision, was "devastated" by the ruling, and is refusing to take his daughter back "because he has no authority over her."

Quebec girl wins court case over field trip

Phantom · 07-01-2008, 10:29 AM

There's alot going on with this story, but a court getting involved in discipline is a crazy idea IMO.

WickedLou9 · 07-01-2008, 12:27 PM

this looks like a case where the mother sued the father actually. The parents are separated or divorced? The Mother wanted teh girl to go on the field trip and the father refused to sign the paper. It's not really a case of the state vs. parents rights but rather a case of which parent has authority over the child.

The girl's mother allowed her to go on the trip, but because the school wouldn't allow the girl to go unless both parents consented, the girl, with the mother's support took legal action against her father

kombayn · 07-01-2008, 11:22 PM

HAHAHA!!! Wow...

jimeigh · 07-02-2008, 12:24 AM

ooooh canada

motivez · 07-02-2008, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

this looks like a case where the mother sued the father actually. The parents are separated or divorced? The Mother wanted teh girl to go on the field trip and the father refused to sign the paper. It's not really a case of the state vs. parents rights but rather a case of which parent has authority over the child.

Well, that makes a lot more sense then.. some third party would have to decide if they share equal custody of the child..

Apparently the father has refused to take his daughter back.. Kinda sucks for the daughter, though I'd imagine she cares more about her trip at this point.

7960 · 07-07-2008, 01:00 AM

Originally Posted by motivez

AFP: Court overturns father's grounding of 12-year-old

Seems like this is a gigantic over reach in the scope of what a court should be involved in?

galactic was the word I was thinking of.

this never should have made it into a court.

WickedLou9 · 07-07-2008, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

galactic was the word I was thinking of.

this never should have made it into a court.

so what do you do then when 2 parents are separated and each one disagrees about something major like this? The court needs to rule who has legal authority.

7960 · 07-07-2008, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

so what do you do then when 2 parents are separated and each one disagrees about something major like this?

.......the girl's father has full legal custody..................

it stopped right there.

WickedLou9 · 07-07-2008, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

.......the girl's father has full legal custody..................

it stopped right there.

It's not really that simple in this case. Custody was being contested.

While the girl's father has full legal custody, pending a further court decision, the girl has been living with her mother, Ms. Fortin said. But while Ms. Beaudoin says the girl went to live with her mother when her father forbade her from going on the trip, Ms. Fortin contends that she was "kicked out" of her father's house over family tensions.

"In a situation like this where you're in contested custody proceedings, there's often a high level of conflict," said Ms. Grassby. "And one of the reasons that in Quebec that children have lawyers named for them is because the parents and the court recognizes that in high conflict situations it gives the child a safe place to first give their opinion, and get advice."

I don't know about you but if I was ever separated from my spouse and she started making some terrible decisions about my child I would want some way of preventing her from doing damage to my child. That is what happened here. This is one parent suing another. This is not a child suing a parent because they don't agree with a punishment.

7960 · 07-07-2008, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

It's not really that simple in this case.

yes it is.

he had custody, he had full authority to discipline her as he saw fit.

I don't know about you but if I was ever separated from my spouse and she started making some terrible decisions about my child I would want some way of preventing her from doing damage to my child. That is what happened here. This is one parent suing another. This is not a child suing a parent because they don't agree with a punishment.

wrong.

...the girl, with the mother's support took legal action against her father.

Viv · 07-07-2008, 08:00 PM

It's nobody's business but the parents. The courts need to completely butt out.

What is he being sued for? Telling his child she can't go on a trip?

Even if she had done nothing and behaved impeccably, the father could have decided not to let her go...for any number of reasons. What if he couldn't afford it? What if he was concerned about the number of school trips which end in disaster? Didn't like the company she was keeping, etc etc...

It is his right to do that. Adults do not have to explain decisions to 12-year-old children.

The mother sounds like a fruitbat, but she is the one who will suffer in the long term, because this girl will test her boundaries even more as she get older. In a couple of years the mother will be desperate for support from a disciplinarian.

WickedLou9 · 07-07-2008, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

yes it is.

he had custody, he had full authority to discipline her as he saw fit.

wrong.

...the girl, with the mother's support took legal action against her father.

Nah I'm not wrong. The mother was challenging the fathers authority in thsi case and fighting for custody. Thats why the case was in court. The mother may have had the daughter file the suit but you can be sure that it was the mother diong everything here. If it makes you feel better to make a big deal about judicial overeaching then you can think it was just some kid who didn't like being punished thats your perogative. that is not what is happening here.

Rouger2 · 07-07-2008, 10:19 PM

The judge ruled that it was unduly severe punishment. That's a judgement call she has no right to decide on that unless the punishment was physical and caused damage to the child.

motivez · 07-07-2008, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Nah I'm not wrong. The mother was challenging the fathers authority in thsi case and fighting for custody. Thats why the case was in court. The mother may have had the daughter file the suit but you can be sure that it was the mother diong everything here. If it makes you feel better to make a big deal about judicial overeaching then you can think it was just some kid who didn't like being punished thats your perogative. that is not what is happening here.

If she didn't currently have custody over the child, and the father did, what business is it of hers how he disciplines her for breaking the rules (so long as it's not abuse, etc.. and forcing her to miss a field trip is not abuse)?

7960 · 07-09-2008, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

The mother may have had the daughter file the suit but you can be sure that it was the mother diong everything here.

ahh, ok.

so the daughter's name is on it, she was in court, and she had the lawyer but you somehow *know* it was the mother pulling all the strings.

excellent.

WickedLou9 · 07-11-2008, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by 7960

ahh, ok.

so the daughter's name is on it, she was in court, and she had the lawyer but you somehow *know* it was the mother pulling all the strings.

excellent.

I don't understand why you would willfully suspend your disbelief that the two parents ,being locked in a custody battle, don't have anything to do with this situation. No it was the girl who brought the lawsuit. It's ridiculous. a 12 year old girl went and hired a lawyer with what? her lunch money? The 12 year old girl drove herself to court, filed a suit against her father? It's ridiculous. The only involvement the girl had was to complain to her mommy and sign her name on the lawsuit when her mother told her to.