Guns Laws Protect Murderer - Page 3

thewise1 · 07-02-2008, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

That's because society empowers them to do so. Why should this guy could be allowed to judge, jury, and executioner when he wasn't in danger or defending himself?

And if he can do it legally, why can't I for other crimes where the official punishment isn't death?

You're speeding, I'm going to shoot you for breaking the law.
You just jay-walked, I'm going to shoot you for breaking the law.
You just put a dent in that guy's car with your shopping cart, I'm going to shoot you for damaging someone's property

Society did empower him to do so.

motivez · 07-02-2008, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

Would you say the same thing if he had somehow apprehended the thieves while preserving their lives? That he shouldn't have gotten involved because it wasn't his property, I mean?

Vigilante justice is not justice.

motivez · 07-02-2008, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

Society did empower him to do so.

The punishment for theft is not death.

thewise1 · 07-02-2008, 03:29 PM

In this case, the justice system isn't justice either. They were getting away and as usual the police were not there to stop the crime. Had they gotten away the likelihood that they would have seen justice is almost zero, most police departments won't even seriously investigate things like this and they will even tell you such.

7960 · 07-02-2008, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

No, I don't believe that government should execute for theft. But I have no sympathy for them in this case.

I wouldn't have sympathy for them if they were breaking in and the homeowner killed them. But this guy initiated this confrontation. He was perfectly safe in his house with his gun. HE created the danger when he left and went outside and killed them.

And some of the news reports have him saying "put your hands up" or something like that. Listen to the tape........he told the dispatcher he was going outside to kill them, went outside, said "boom you're dead" and then shot them. He didn't give them a chance.

thewise1 · 07-02-2008, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

The punishment for theft is not death.

Nope, but a grand jury decided not to indict him either, so in this case, that was the price.

thewise1 · 07-02-2008, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

I wouldn't have sympathy for them if they were breaking in and the homeowner killed them. But this guy initiated this confrontation. He was perfectly safe in his house with his gun. HE created the danger when he left and went outside and killed them.

And some of the news reports have him saying "put your hands up" or something like that. Listen to the tape........he told the dispatcher he was going outside to kill them, went outside, said "boom you're dead" and then shot them. He didn't give them a chance.

No. They created the danger by creating a situation where he felt the need to go intervene.

motivez · 07-02-2008, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

In this case, the justice system isn't justice either. They were getting away and as usual the police were not there to stop the crime. Had they gotten away the likelihood that they would have seen justice is almost zero, most police departments won't even seriously investigate things like this and they will even tell you such.

That's a pretty big what if, the police were on there way and there's no telling what would have happened if he hadn't decided to go outside and kill them

nbiggershaft · 07-02-2008, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

it wasn't his life in danger

Now thats a curious statement, while like I said before in the thread, this was a case where no ones life was really in danger. Would you have a problem with him shooting the guys if he felt someone elses life was in danger? ie, his neighbors life

motivez · 07-02-2008, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

No. They created the danger by creating a situation where he felt the need to go intervene.

So if I feel the need to intervene when I see someone let a shopping cart go and it dents a car (violating your property rights) it's okay for me to shoot the offender?

thewise1 · 07-02-2008, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

That's a pretty big what if, the police were on there way and there's no telling what would have happened if he hadn't decided to go outside and kill them

They were already running away

Sorry dude, I've had stuff stolen from me in the past and when they do it, 5 minutes is all they need. Unless they are pretty stupid, you'll never see them again and the police aren't gonna do anything but take a report for insurance purposes.

motivez · 07-02-2008, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

Now thats a curious statement, while like I said before in the thread, this was a case where no ones life was really in danger. Would you have a problem with him shooting the guys if he felt someone elses life was in danger? ie, his neighbors life

I have no problem with people acting in self defense, this situation was obviously NOT self defense, though.

thewise1 · 07-02-2008, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

So if I feel the need to intervene when I see someone let a shopping cart go and it dents a car (violating your property rights) it's okay for me to shoot the offender?

That's not what happened here, I'm not going to speculate into theoretical situations in which we haven't nailed down any of the surrounding context or facts. No offense

Scrum · 07-02-2008, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

YouTube - Man Kills 2 . . . [Joe Horn - Full Tape]

wft......listening to the tape, this guy should get the death penalty for premeditated murder

Wow.

I don't see how you can justify taking someones life to defend your own property, let alone someone elses.

7960 · 07-02-2008, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

I don't see how you can say he 'wanted' to kill someone. He 'wanted' to see these guys come to justice, and the cops weren't showing up in time.

did you listen to the tape?

he wanted to kill them, told the cop he was going to kill them, and went out and killed them without warning.

motivez · 07-02-2008, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

They were already running away

Yeah, and this guy shot them in the back as they fled, while he wasn't in danger.

Originally Posted by thewise1

Sorry dude, I've had stuff stolen from me in the past and when they do it, 5 minutes is all they need. Unless they are pretty stupid, you'll never see them again and the police aren't gonna do anything but take a report for insurance purposes.

Again, a big what if. You don't know how close the police were when he fired the shot.

7960 · 07-02-2008, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

A poor man's property right is no more violable than a rich man's property right.

If it's justified for one, then it should be justified for the other. In this case we don't even know for sure what they stole unless I missed that too

we know they got some stuff and $2k in cash. I don't care. I want to go back to this.

did you just say it's ok to kill someone if he steals a t-shirt?

thewise1 · 07-02-2008, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

did you listen to the tape?

he wanted to kill them, told the cop he was going to kill them, and went out and killed them without warning.

"I don’t want to," Horn said, "but I mean if I go out there, you know, to see what the hell is going on, what choice am I gonna have?"

Sorry, can't listen to the tape at work, just have the transcript to work with. Maybe some of what you said is true, but based on what we see here, he did not in fact 'want' to kill someone or shoot them.

Scrum · 07-02-2008, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

I don't see how you can say he 'wanted' to kill someone. He 'wanted' to see these guys come to justice, and the cops weren't showing up in time.

Justice for theft is death?

Did I move to Saudi Arabia and not realize it?

motivez · 07-02-2008, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

That's not what happened here, I'm not going to speculate into theoretical situations in which we haven't nailed down any of the surrounding context or facts. No offense

It's exactly what happened here, just with slightly different circumstances

This guy was in his own house, in no danger, his rights weren't being violted. He notices people violating someone else's property rights and decides to shoot them in the back as they left the scene

So, why can't I do the same if someone lets a shopping cart go and it dents a car as they walk away?

The same logic you're using to justify his actions applies there for sure