Guns Laws Protect Murderer - Page 4

7960 · 07-02-2008, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

They were getting away and as usual the police were not there to stop the crime.

an officer saw him pull the trigger so the police WERE there...they got there just as it happened.

they were not getting away.

you don't know if the cop would have stopped them or followed them or what.

motivez · 07-02-2008, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

"I don’t want to," Horn said, "but I mean if I go out there, you know, to see what the hell is going on, what choice am I gonna have?"

So he's putting himself in a situation where he knows he's going to have to kill someone..

thewise1 · 07-02-2008, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

we know they got some stuff and $2k in cash. I don't care. I want to go back to this.

did you just say it's ok to kill someone if he steals a t-shirt?

This guy didn't know if they had $2k and stuff or a bag of tshirts, all he knew is that they had broken into someone's house and were bailing with a bag of stuff.

As for your question, I don't see why poor people should be afforded less protection of their belongings than rich people. They weren't shot for taking more than $2k in stuff, they were shot because they were burglarizing a house.

thewise1 · 07-02-2008, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

So he's putting himself in a situation where he knows he's going to have to kill someone..

I'm not arguing that, but that doesn't mean he wanted to kill him. Let's leave the hyperbole out of this..

nbiggershaft · 07-02-2008, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

I have no problem with people acting in self defense, this situation was obviously NOT self defense, though.

But not self defense, defense of others. Lets set up the situation with the same guy, he sees these two trying to break into his neighbors house and he doesn't know for a fact his neighbors are out of town. He'd probably go out and shoot them.

I would be grateful to the guy for defending my home, especially if my family was inside. I'd want him to detain the criminals and not shoot them, but lets face it, its an 80 yr old guy, not a cop.

thewise1 · 07-02-2008, 03:40 PM

This is interesting... I looked up more about this and found this from wikipedia:

A plain clothes police detective responding to the 911 call had arrived at the scene before the shooting and witnessed the escalation and shootings, while remaining in his car.[3] His report on the incident indicated that the men who were killed "received gunfire from the rear".[1] Police Capt. A.H. Corbett stated the two men ignored Mr. Horn's order to freeze and one of the suspects ran towards Joe Horn before he angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back. Pasadena police confirmed that the two men were shot after they ventured into his front yard. The detective did not arrest Horn.

7960 · 07-02-2008, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

Now thats a curious statement, while like I said before in the thread, this was a case where no ones life was really in danger. Would you have a problem with him shooting the guys if he felt someone elses life was in danger? ie, his neighbors life

"life in danger" should be the key.

if he knew his neighbor was home and saw someone go in I'd help him load the gun. but he knew his neighbor wasn't home. he knew nobody's life was in danger and he went outside to confront them anyway.

thewise1 · 07-02-2008, 03:41 PM

So he DID try to detain them, and they obviously decided not to obey. Lots of poor choices on their part that day.

7960 · 07-02-2008, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

That's not what happened here, I'm not going to speculate into theoretical situations in which we haven't nailed down any of the surrounding context or facts. No offense

you're saying offenses against property rights is justification for killing someone. you already said it's ok to kill someone if he steals your t-shirt......we can fill in a million other stupid examples.

basically you assign as much value to things as you do to life.

WickedLou9 · 07-02-2008, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

"life in danger" should be the key.

if he knew his neighbor was home and saw someone go in I'd help him load the gun. but he knew his neighbor wasn't home. he knew nobody's life was in danger and he went outside to confront them anyway.

Texas is the only state with a law like this. In any other state the guy would be sitting in jail.

If the people in Texas want to live in a place that says its OK to shoot someone who you think has comitted a crime.. thats fine. God help the man who makes a mistake and shoots an innocent person.

As a side note... these are the same people who pretend to embrace good Christian values. I can think of nothing more un-Christian than to kill someone for stealing from you.

7960 · 07-02-2008, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

"I don’t want to," Horn said, "but I mean if I go out there, you know, to see what the hell is going on, what choice am I gonna have?"

Sorry, can't listen to the tape at work, just have the transcript to work with. Maybe some of what you said is true, but based on what we see here, he did not in fact 'want' to kill someone or shoot them.

you need to listen to it.

Horn: "I understand that, OK, but I have a right to protect myself too, sir, and you understand that. And the laws have been changed in this country since September the First and you know it and I know it."

Horn: "I have a right to protect myself ..."

Horn: "And a shotgun is a legal weapon, it's not an illegal weapon."

Horn: "OK, he's coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I'm sorry, but he's coming out the window. "

Dispatcher: "No, don't, don't go out the door, Mister Horn. Mister Horn..."

Horn: "They just stole something, I'm going out to look for 'em, I'm sorry, I ain't letting them get away with this ----. They stole something, they got a bag of stuff. I'm doing it!"

Dispatcher: "You gonna get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun, I don't care what you think."

Horn: "You wanna make a bet?"

Horn: "Well, here it goes buddy, you hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going."

"Boom! You're dead!" he shouts. (THEN) a loud bang is heard, then a shotgun being cocked and fired again, and then again.

he was angry, he worked himself into a frenzy, when he saw his chance he went outside and killed them. He said "boom you're dead" BEFORE he pulled the trigger. It sounds like he was having fun.

thewise1 · 07-02-2008, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

you're saying offenses against property rights is justification for killing someone. you already said it's ok to kill someone if he steals your t-shirt......we can fill in a million other stupid examples.

basically you assign as much value to things as you do to life.

I don't think it's any secret on these forums that I hold self ownership and property rights to be the basis of liberty.

7960 · 07-02-2008, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

This is interesting... I looked up more about this and found this from wikipedia:

what's even more interesting is you can't hear that on the tape but you can hear words just before and just after he SUPPOSEDLY said it.

in other words, in case that wasn't clear, I don't believe he gave any warning before killing them.

thewise1 · 07-02-2008, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

you need to listen to it.

he was angry, he worked himself into a frenzy, when he saw his chance he went outside and killed them. He said "boom you're dead" BEFORE he pulled the trigger. It sounds like he was having fun.

This is ridiculous, have you ever been in a situation where you had to point a firearm at someone? Do you have any idea how scary that is and what the adrenaline will do to you?

I do, as I have had to. Thankfully I was not forced to fire.

Thankfully the police detective was also around to note that he didn't just shoot them with no warning.

thewise1 · 07-02-2008, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Texas is the only state with a law like this. In any other state the guy would be sitting in jail.

If the people in Texas want to live in a place that says its OK to shoot someone who you think has comitted a crime.. thats fine. God help the man who makes a mistake and shoots an innocent person.

As a side note... these are the same people who pretend to embrace good Christian values. I can think of nothing more un-Christian than to kill someone for stealing from you.

What law are you talking about? Castle doctrine?

7960 · 07-02-2008, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

I don't think it's any secret on these forums that I hold self ownership and property rights to be the basis of liberty.

IMO you're alone in that extreme of a belief.

WickedLou9 · 07-02-2008, 03:52 PM

This is what a good Christian person would have done in a similar situation.

A Victim Treats His Mugger Right : NPR

thewise1 · 07-02-2008, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

IMO you're alone in that extreme of a belief.

Apparently not, but if you would like to ignore the others then that's your choice.

WickedLou9 · 07-02-2008, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

What law are you talking about? Castle doctrine?

That it's OK to shoot someone who doesn't pose any threat to you or your life, simply because they are on your property.

thewise1 · 07-02-2008, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

This is what a good Christian person would have done in a similar situation.

A Victim Treats His Mugger Right : NPR

Good read. I have no problem with that approach either. Good on Julio!