Guns Laws Protect Murderer

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by article

(CNN) -- Joe Horn may be praised by gun enthusiasts and thrill seekers as a no-nonsense guy who got fed up with crime in America by pulling out his shotgun and blasting two men to their deaths, but there is no doubt the Texas man will be haunted by his fatal decision.

Ever since the suburban Houston man saw two burglars crawling out his neighbor's window on November 14 and gunned them down, Horn has been in legal limbo, unsure if he was going to have to defend himself and his actions or go free.

Monday, a Harris County grand jury chose not to indict Horn in the deaths of Hernando Riascos Torres and Diego Ortiz, meaning he can live his life without having to explain before a jury of his peers why he chose to be judge, jury and executioner of the two.

As a native Texan, I know how folks in my state feel about criminals: Hit 'em hard, then hit 'em again. The state leads the nation in executions, and Texas juries don't play when it comes to crime.

Yet while folks revel in Horn's actions, it really does call for a moment of reflection about the seriousness of taking someone's life.

Horn did what any of us would do in that situation: He called 911 to report the crime, and was told officers were being dispatched. But he was so incensed with what was taking place he told the dispatcher he was going to kill the men. No amount of pleading could get him to stop. On the audiotape of the incident, we can hear Horn racking his gun, firing two shots and killing Torres and Ortiz.

"They had it coming." "Tough stuff." "They shouldn't have broken the law." I heard all of those comments and more on my radio show, blogs and other call-in shows, as a nation fed up with crime gave a big "Hooray!" for Horn.

But I just don't see exactly what there is to celebrate. Two men -- both illegal immigrants and one of them with a conviction for selling drugs -- are dead for stealing some personal effects, and we are supposed to welcome this vigilante justice? (I suppose it's ironic that one week after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the rape of a child doesn't merit the death penalty -- one that I disagree with -- many others are celebrating a man not standing trial for the killing of two others who committed robbery.)

Yes, the law was on Horn's side, whether he knew that or not when he fired. But when does our core decency come in when we make such life-altering decisions in a snap? Don't you think making the choice to kill someone should be based on something more dire, such as if your life is in danger?

Don't be so quick to jump up and down and say you would have done the same thing; really think about it and ask yourself if you would follow Joe Horn and kill two people for stealing from your neighbor.

At no point was Horn's life in danger. We also know that his neighbor was out of town and no one was at home. So don't try to bring up the various hypothetical situations that could alter the basic facts of the story.

Two sorry men who already broke the law by coming in the country illegally chose to hasten their fate by robbing the wrong house with the wrong neighbor watching.

Our choices have life-altering -- or life-ending -- consequences.

But Horn could have chosen differently. He didn't have to fire on the men. He could have heeded the advice of the dispatcher and not gone outside with his shotgun. He could have left apprehending criminals to the folks empowered to do so -- the police.

I think of my dad, who as a child I witnessed chase down two men who snatched a woman's Christmas gifts from her hand in a mall parking lot. If he had a gun, should he have just fired away, protecting this unknown woman's property?

I really want to know: Would you have pulled a Joe Horn and racked your shotgun and fired on the men if you were in his shoes?

I think the guy is a murderer. Is this the type of "defense of property" gun nuts keep touting? Would you be ok with the death penalty for stealing a car?

[lew]

He's an American hero.

[motivez]

I don't know how I feel about someone else being legally allowed to take up arms to defend your property in your absence..

I mean, the guy obviously had good intentions (preventing them from getting away with his neighbors property) and those people he shot were criminals who'd broken various laws already, and could have continued that barring his intervention, but since no one's life was put at risk during the course of their robbery I think killing them as they fled (definitely not in self defense) was going overboard

[thewise1]

So much sympathy for someone who would deprive others of their property, but I see no sympathy for the victim of the actual crime.

I'd rather they didn't have to die, but he put himself in that danger, so I have no sympathy at all. At least he won't steal again.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by thewise1

So much sympathy for someone who would deprive others of their property, but I see no sympathy for the victim of the actual crime.

Talking about the people those two were robbing from is meaningless since they weren't home at the time. Sure it sucks they had shit taken from them, but they weren't even there at the time, and aside from it being their house that got broken into, aren't really relevant

Originally Posted by thewise1

I'd rather they didn't have to die, but he put himself in that danger, so I have no sympathy at all. At least he won't steal again.

Huh?

[7960]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

I think the guy is a murderer.

I agree.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by motivez

I don't know how I feel about someone else being legally allowed to take up arms to defend your property in your absence..

I mean, the guy obviously had good intentions (preventing them from getting away with his neighbors property) and those people he shot were criminals who'd broken various laws already, and could have continued that barring his intervention, but since no one's life was put at risk during the course of their robbery I think killing them as they fled (definitely not in self defense) was going overboard

By the way, this can be expressed the same way as the post I made in the other thread:

Property is the product of your time and talent, which is your life. To steal his property is to steal a portion of his past. I realize that we're going to disagree on this but these burglars initiated the use of force to steal someone else's property - part of their life, and it was defended. Justice was done in my book.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by thewise1

By the way, this can be expressed the same way as the post I made in the other thread:

Property is the product of your time and talent, which is your life. To steal his property is to steal a portion of his past. I realize that we're going to disagree on this but these burglars initiated the use of force to steal someone else's property - part of their life, and it was defended. Justice was done in my book.

Are you missing the fact that the guy who killed them isn't the one who's property was taken? I don't see how the property being taken is at all relevant to the discussion, the people who's house was robbed weren't even home. This guy who pulled the trigger is a neighbor.

If those people had been breaking into his house and he defended himself, that's one thing. But, he noticed a crime taking place and went outside with a gun and shot them as the robbers fled, not in self defense

[nbiggershaft]

"boom, you're dead"

anyone else remember listening to that tape?

YouTube Video

my youtube isn't working, feel free to edit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7jqLie6-Y0


While this case is clearly murder of some sort, you gotta wish you had neighbors like this. Someone tried to break into my apartment with a crowbar last week while I was out of town. But my wife was there alone. Luckily they didn't manage to get through the lock. Had they, she could be dead right now. I'd be pretty grateful to a shotgun wielding neighbor if he had killed them before they got in.

[thewise1]

Just to clarify, I view the property owner whos house was being burglarized as the victim here, before I respond...

Originally Posted by motivez

Talking about the people those two were robbing from is meaningless since they weren't home at the time.

Not sure how that mitigates their losses...

Sure it sucks they had shit taken from them, but they weren't even there at the time, and aside from it being their house that got broken into, aren't really relevant

It's completely relevant, if the burglars hadn't broken into their house to steal anything, they would be alive today.

Huh?

I think you misunderstood my post since I referred to the burglars in a singular form (I didn't catch that two died, I thought only one did at first).

I would rather the burglars didn't have to die, but they put themselves at risk by making the choice to initiate the use of force against someone else's property (part of their life), and they lost the bet this time. At least they won't bother anyone else.

[7960]

the 911 call

Joe Horn, 61, told the dispatcher what he intended to do: Walk out his front door with a shotgun.

"I've got a shotgun," Horn said, according to a tape of the 911 call. "Do you want me to stop them?"

"Nope, don't do that - ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?" the dispatcher responded.

"Hurry up man, catch these guys, will you? 'Cause I'm ain't gonna let 'em go, I'm gonna be honest with you, I'm not gonna let 'em go. I'm not gonna let 'em get away with this ----."

Shortly after, Horn said he sees one suspect was standing in front of his house, looking at it from the street.

"I don’t know if they’re armed or not. I know they got a crowbar 'cause that's what they broke the windows with. ... Man, this is scary, I can't believe this is happening in this neighborhood."

He gets more agitated. The dispatcher asks if he can see the suspects but they had retreated into the target's house, out of view: "I can go out the front [to look], but if I go out the front I'm bringing my shotgun with me, I swear to God. I am not gonna let 'em get away with this, I can't take a chance on getting killed over this, OK? I'm gonna shoot, I'm gonna shoot."

"Stay inside the house and don’t go out there, OK?" the dispatcher said. "I know you're pissed off, I know what you're feeling, but it's not worth shooting somebody over this, OK?"

"I don’t want to," Horn said, "but I mean if I go out there, you know, to see what the hell is going on, what choice am I gonna have?

"No, I don’t want you to go out there, I just asked if you could see anything out there."

The dispatcher asks if a vehicle could be seen; Horn said no. The dispatcher again says Horn should stay inside the house.

Almost five minutes into the call, police had not arrived.

"I can’t see if [the suspects are] getting away or not," Horn said.

Horn told the dispatcher that he doesn’t know the neighbors well, unlike those living on the other side of his home. "I can assure you if it had been their house, I would have already done something, because I know them very well," he said.

Dispatcher: "I want you to listen to me carefully, OK?"

Horn: "Yes?"

Dispatcher: "I got ultras coming out there. I don't want you to go outside that house. And I don't want you to have that gun in your hand when those officers are poking around out there."

Horn: "I understand that, OK, but I have a right to protect myself too, sir, and you understand that. And the laws have been changed in this country since September the First and you know it and I know it."

Dispatcher: "I understand."

Horn: "I have a right to protect myself ..."

Dispatcher: "I'm ..."

Horn: "And a shotgun is a legal weapon, it's not an illegal weapon."

Dispatcher: "No, it's not, I'm not saying that, I'm just not wanting you to ..."

Horn: "OK, he's coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I'm sorry, but he's coming out the window. "

Dispatcher: "No, don't, don't go out the door, Mister Horn. Mister Horn..."

Horn: "They just stole something, I'm going out to look for 'em, I'm sorry, I ain't letting them get away with this ----. They stole something, they got a bag of stuff. I'm doing it!"

Dispatcher: "Mister, do not go outside the house."

Horn: "I'm sorry, this ain't right, buddy."

Dispatcher: "You gonna get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun, I don't care what you think."

Horn: "You wanna make a bet?"

Dispatcher: "Stay in the house."

Horn: "There, one of them's getting away!

Dispatcher: "That's alright, property's not something worth killing someone over. OK? Don't go out the house, don't be shooting nobody. I know you're pissed and you're frustrated but don't do it."

Horn: "They got a bag of loot."

Dispatcher: "OK. How big is the bag?" He then talks off, relaying the information.

Dispatcher: "Which way are they going?"

Horn: "I can't ... I'm going outside. I'll find out."

Dispatcher: "I don't want you going outside, Mister..."

Horn: "Well, here it goes buddy, you hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going."

Dispatcher: "Don't go outside."

On the tape of the 911 call, the shotgun can be heard being cocked and Horn can be heard going outside and confronting someone.

"Boom! You're dead!" he shouts. A loud bang is heard, then a shotgun being cocked and fired again, and then again.

Then Horn is back on the phone:

"Get the law over here quick. I've now, get, one of them's in the front yard over there, he's down, he almost run down the street. I had no choice. They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice! ... Get somebody over here quick, man."

Dispatcher: "Mister Horn, are you out there right now?"

Horn: "No, I am inside the house, I went back in the house. Man, they come right in my yard, I didn't know what the --- they was gonna do, I shot 'em, OK?"

Dispatcher: "Did you shoot somebody?

Horn: "Yes, I did, the cops are here right now."

Dispatcher: "Where are you right now?"

Horn: "I'm inside the house. ..."

Dispatcher: "Mister Horn, put that gun down before you shoot an officer of mine. I've got several officers out there without uniforms on."

Horn: "I am in the front yard right now. I am ..."

Dispatcher: "Put that gun down! There's officers out there without uniforms on. Do not shoot anybody else, do you understand me? I've got police out there..."

Horn: "I understand, I understand. I am out in the front yard waving my hand right now."

Dispatcher: "You don't have a gun with you, do you?

Horn: "No, no, no."

Dispatcher: "You see a uniformed officer? Now lay down on the ground and don't do nothing else."

Yelling is heard.

Dispatcher: "Lay down on the ground, Mister Horn. Do what the officers tell you to do right now."

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by motivez

Are you missing the fact that the guy who killed them isn't the one who's property was taken? I don't see how the property being taken is at all relevant to the discussion, the people who's house was robbed weren't even home. This guy who pulled the trigger is a neighbor.

If those people had been breaking into his house and he defended himself, that's one thing. But, he noticed a crime taking place and went outside with a gun and shot them as the robbers fled, not in self defense

I wish more people would defend their neighbors property. No, that did not escape me.

[7960]

Originally Posted by thewise1

By the way, this can be expressed the same way as the post I made in the other thread:

Property is the product of your time and talent, which is your life. To steal his property is to steal a portion of his past.

bullshit.

argue that it was ok to kill the guy for stealing but don't claim that it's ok because a ring or bracelet = your life.

[motivez]

Of course they're one of the victims in this case, but certainly not the only ones.. and not the important ones for discussing whether or not the guy who shot them was right to act as he did since his rights were not being violated at the time

You seem to be equating whatever it was they stole as being of equal value as the lives of the thieves. So, should we start executing people for theft?

[lew]

Originally Posted by motivez

Are you missing the fact that the guy who killed them isn't the one who's property was taken? I don't see how the property being taken is at all relevant to the discussion, the people who's house was robbed weren't even home. This guy who pulled the trigger is a neighbor.

If those people had been breaking into his house and he defended himself, that's one thing. But, he noticed a crime taking place and went outside with a gun and shot them as the robbers fled, not in self defense

Who cares about that?

When the government prosecutes a thief, the government isn't the injured party but it still convicts the criminal.


In this case, the neighbor wasn't the injured party like you say, but he executed justice just like a government would do.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by 7960

the 911 call

Now that's a good read.

[7960]

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

"boom, you're dead"

anyone else remember listening to that tape?

YouTube - Man Kills 2 . . . [Joe Horn - Full Tape]


wft......listening to the tape, this guy should get the death penalty for premeditated murder

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by 7960

bullshit.

argue that it was ok to kill the guy for stealing but don't claim that it's ok because a ring or bracelet = your life.

It's not the whole of someone's life, but it is a part of someone's life.