McCain's view on Patriotism smells like the old USSR.

WickedLou9 · 07-03-2008, 02:19 PM

Patriotism is deeper than its symbolic expressions, than sentiments about place and kinship that move us to hold our hands over our hearts during the national anthem. It is putting the country first, before party or personal ambition, before anything.

His view of patriotism sounds kinda statist. Someting I might expect an old Soviet leader to say. Individual wants, dreams, desires.. all unimportant. The state is supreme above all.

I don't think that is the way he intended his speech to sound, but it does sound that way. To me at least.

WickedLou9 · 07-03-2008, 02:26 PM

I guess in fairness here is a link to Obama's response to the same question

Parade Magazine on Yahoo! News

thewise1 · 07-03-2008, 02:31 PM

Most of the Republican party reminds me of the USSR anymore, except they replace worship of the state with worship of Jesus.. except when it's inconvenient

WickedLou9 · 07-03-2008, 02:35 PM

I would even argue that personal ambition and the reward for such is something that helped make this country great.

Scrum · 07-03-2008, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

Most of the Republican party reminds me of the USSR anymore, except they replace worship of the state with worship of Jesus.. except when it's inconvenient

thewise1 · 07-03-2008, 03:17 PM

wow

motivez · 07-03-2008, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Scrum

kickin' ass, savin' souls. except those america hatin' muslims. they're goin straight to hell! america, fuck yeah!

Rouger2 · 07-03-2008, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Parade Magazine on Yahoo! News

His view of patriotism sounds kinda statist. Someting I might expect an old Soviet leader to say. Individual wants, dreams, desires.. all unimportant. The state is supreme above all.

I don't think that is the way he intended his speech to sound, but it does sound that way. To me at least.

Isn't that what an american decides when he or she decides to go to war to protect his country and possible give everything for his country. His life. A military man would understand this more than one who's never been in the service. We need more patriotism in this country. We are in a competitive world and we better start understanding that before it is too late. Right now we need patriotism and lots of it and I'm not talking about needing it for Iraq.

Simius · 07-04-2008, 12:49 AM

I may be sort of non-patriotic. But I tend to think that right and wrong should be placed before the country you happen to reside in. Blind nationalism/patriotism is kinda scary because no matter how wrong your nation's actions may be... You'll support it because it is your nation doing it.

To me, at times not supporting your nation and actively dissenting against its actions is the most patriotic thing you can do.

WickedLou9 · 07-04-2008, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Rouger2

Isn't that what an american decides when he or she decides to go to war to protect his country and possible give everything for his country. His life. A military man would understand this more than one who's never been in the service. We need more patriotism in this country. We are in a competitive world and we better start understanding that before it is too late. Right now we need patriotism and lots of it and I'm not talking about needing it for Iraq.

Most people, not all, join up because it's the best option for them career wise. it will help pay for college, or it will pay more than any other job they could get. true there are some people who join based on thier personal belief that it's the right thing to do but there is a degree of personal gain in it as well.

Libertaire · 07-04-2008, 08:54 AM

Patriotism is love of one's country, not the love of one's government... that's statism. Democrats and Republicans alike use such language equating a society with the state.

Rouger2 · 07-04-2008, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Most people, not all, join up because it's the best option for them career wise. it will help pay for college, or it will pay more than any other job they could get. true there are some people who join based on thier personal belief that it's the right thing to do but there is a degree of personal gain in it as well.

Is probably true but it is sad thing. If we are not willing to give our life for our country we eventually will have no country. Like in life if someone pushes you down you better stand up and push back or you will be on the ground forever. So we better as a country, and people always be ready to push back.

Rouger2 · 07-04-2008, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by Libertaire

Patriotism is love of one's country, not the love of one's government... that's statism. Democrats and Republicans alike use such language equating a society with the state.

In a democracy the government is the people via their reps.

thewise1 · 07-05-2008, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Rouger2

In a democracy the government is the people via their reps.

actually that's not pure democracy

thewise1 · 07-05-2008, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I would even argue that personal ambition and the reward for such is something that helped make this country great.

I didn't see this before - I wanted to thank you for making that argument because it's incredibly true.

C4Casey · 07-09-2008, 01:52 AM

Most people, not all, join up because it's the best option for them career wise. it will help pay for college, or it will pay more than any other job they could get. true there are some people who join based on thier personal belief that it's the right thing to do but there is a degree of personal gain in it as well.

And how many people in the military do you actually know from whom you can draw this conclussion?

WickedLou9 · 07-09-2008, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by C4Casey

Most people, not all, join up because it's the best option for them career wise. it will help pay for college, or it will pay more than any other job they could get. true there are some people who join based on thier personal belief that it's the right thing to do but there is a degree of personal gain in it as well.

And how many people in the military do you actually know from whom you can draw this conclussion?

Irrelevant. I don't need to know anyone in the military to make the assertion. There is this great thing humanity has invented called the written word. It's perhaps the single largest achievement of human beings. It has allowed us to share knowledge across generations... With written language I don't have to fight in WW2 to learn about it. I don't have to invest money to learn about financial investment. I don't have to conduct a poll to find out which candidate most americans are supporting. Others who have gone before me can write down what they have learned and so pass that information on to me so that I may learn from thier experiences. It's called reading. You should try it.

http://www.alternet.org/stories/52233/

I will help you by pulling out some important parts

The conservative claim that most youth enlist due to patriotism and the desire to "serve one's country" is misleading. The Pentagon's own surveys show that something vague and abstract called "duty to country" motivates only a portion of enlistees.
The vast majority of young people wind up in the military for different reasons, ranging from economic pressure to the desire to escape a dead-end situation at home to the promise of citizenship.
Over all, disenfranchisement may be one of the most accurate words for why some youth enlist.
****
Recruiters may not explicitly target "the poor," but there is mounting evidence that they target those whose career options are severely limited. According to a 2007 Associated Press analysis, "nearly three-fourths of [U.S. troops] killed in Iraq came from towns where the per capita income was below the national average. More than half came from towns where the percentage of people living in poverty topped the national average."

***
It perhaps should come as no surprise that the Army GED Plus Enlistment Program, in which applicants without high school diplomas are allowed to enlist while they complete a high school equivalency certificate, is focused on inner-city areas.

***
Economic pressure, however, is an undeniable motivation -- yet to assert that fact in public often leads to confrontations with conservatives who ask, "How dare you question our troops' patriotism?"
But any simplistic understanding of "patriotism" does not begin to capture the myriad of subjective motivations that often coexist alongside economic motives. Altruism -- or as youth often put it, "I want to make a difference" -- is also a major reason a significant number of people enlist.
****
From rural America to the urban cores of deindustrialized cities, a military caste system is slowly taking shape. If recent history is any indication, our politicians will use our military less for national defense than for adventures premised on control of resources, strategic advantage, and ideological fantasies. As in the final decades of every declining empire, it's likely that many wars loom in our future.
Exactly who will have to fight and die in those wars will be determined by economic class. In order to accomplish their goals, the recruiters and politicians will exploit the hopes and dreams of mostly well-intentioned youth from humble origins who are looking for a way to contribute to a society that has lost its moral compass. As they did in Vietnam and again in Iraq, young women and men will serve their country. But how well will their country have served them?

TankRizzo · 07-09-2008, 10:12 AM

I see no problems with what he said. It doesn't infer the current government but more the ideals the country is based on.

C4Casey · 07-09-2008, 12:34 PM

It's called reading. You should try it.

I read alot, thank you very much. We in the military tend to actually read more than the average joe. And from personal experience, I knowthat plenty of my friends, as well as myself, joined because we love our country. Yes, there are plenty of people who join up for career advancement, it's just that I sort of sensed some negativity towards the military as a profession from your previous post. Sorry if I got the wrong idea.

DosEquis · 07-09-2008, 01:22 PM

If joining the military today was indeed to defend this country, I'd consider joining. Today the military is a policy enforcement tool and is not defending the country directly. I will not sign up and potentially sacrifice my life for policy, especially in countries that are no threat to the United States.

In other words, let me know when the Iranian navy is about half way across the atlantic without running out of gas, or if they have an airplane that can even get here, or a missile that can go more than 1,200 miles.

That being said a lot of soldiers join for personal gain. It is the reason why they need to increase enlistment bonuses, pay, and benefits to get people to join.

On the republican views of patriotism, especially the extremist wing of the right wing, you question policy you obviously hate america. Herman Goering had a quote that describes their view to near perfection.