The Separation of Church and State

[ballz2wallz]

This statement was used by Jefferson not to assure that the Church could not influence the government, but to promise the government would not meddle in the affairs of the Church.

Why do we see such a reversal of this foundation?

I think this could be likened to the government getting involved in practically every aspect of our lives.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Originally Posted by Nurse Betty

This statement was used by Jefferson not to assure that the Church could not influence the government, but to promise the government would not meddle in the affairs of the Church.

Why do we see such a reversal of this foundation?

I think this could be likened to the government getting involved in practically every aspect of our lives.

Where does the Government meddle in the affairs of the Church? They get a pretty good ride with their tax exemptions and the "faith-based" programs. I guess you'll have to be more specific.

[7960]

Originally Posted by Nurse Betty

This statement was used by Jefferson not to assure that the Church could not influence the government, but to promise the government would not meddle in the affairs of the Church.

Why do we see such a reversal of this foundation?

how is it reversed? today the govt can't meddles in the affairs of a church but the church members are allowed to do whatever they want politically.........exactly as the founders wanted.

[Rouger2]

I think they wanted god to bless our country but not the church to be involved. Europe had set a good example of what happens when church and state combine and they did not want to follow that disaster.

[banned]

How does the government NOT meddle in free association (the church).

You have to be approved of special religious status in order to be tax exempt. Only government sanctioned religions aren't "violated" per se.

[7960]

Originally Posted by banned

How does the government NOT meddle in free association (the church).

You have to be approved of special religious status in order to be tax exempt. Only government sanctioned religions aren't "violated" per se.

whoa nelly.......... the govt is NOT meddling in free association by asking churches to justify themselves if they want special tax exemption.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by Nurse Betty

This statement was used by Jefferson not to assure that the Church could not influence the government, but to promise the government would not meddle in the affairs of the Church.

I've never read anything to support this. Could you enlighten us?

[kinggovernor]

Originally Posted by Phantom

I've never read anything to support this. Could you enlighten us?

exactly.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by Phantom

I've never read anything to support this. Could you enlighten us?

this?

Jefferson's Wall of Separation Letter - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

Mr. President
To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.
Gentlemen
The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.

[7960]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

this?

why are we trying to do nurse betty's bidding for her?




if she had a point she wanted to make she should come back and make it, then defend it.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

this?

I always read that as being more concerned with personal choices and keeping people free from government religion, not keeping religion free from government tinkering.

I might be overlooking an interpretation though, so please help if I am missing something.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Phantom

I always read that as being more concerned with personal choices and keeping people free from government religion, not keeping religion free from government tinkering.

I might be overlooking an interpretation though, so please help if I am missing something.

This part right here:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.

suggests that religion is a personal matter, and government has no place meddling in the affairs of personal matters. It means nothing about keeping religious influence out of government decisions. A religious influence is far from an establishment of religion by the government.

[7960]

Originally Posted by Nurse Betty

suggests that religion is a personal matter, and government has no place meddling in the affairs of personal matters.

and the govt doesn't.

are you planning to give an instance where the govt DOES get involved in personal/religious matters?

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by 7960

and the govt doesn't.

are you planning to give an instance where the govt DOES get involved in personal/religious matters?

President Calls for Constitutional Amendment Protecting Marriage

[7960]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

President Calls for Constitutional Amendment Protecting Marriage

show me where a religion is mentioned in that speech or DOMA amendment.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by 7960

and the govt doesn't.

are you planning to give an instance where the govt DOES get involved in personal/religious matters?

I'm more interested in suggesting that the idea of "separation of church and state" that many use so often to keep religion out of government is actually meant to keep government out of religion, and thus is not an arguement that can be used for the former.

[7960]

Originally Posted by Nurse Betty

I'm more interested in suggesting that the idea of "separation of church and state" that many use so often to keep religion out of government is actually meant to keep government out of religion, and thus is not an arguement that can be used for the former.

when someone says "separation of church and state" the first thing that pops to my mind is "keeping the govt out of the church."

also, religion doesn't have any place in govt. our govt may take influence from a religion but we should not be putting a hand on a bible in court, and we should not be using sharia law to solve conflict (unless both sides agree to it). if we do allow that then there's nothing keeping me from smacking your wife with a stick if she walks in front of me, because tha'ts ok in my religion so my govt shouldn't be preventing it. right?

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by 7960

show me where a religion is mentioned in that speech or DOMA amendment.

The only justification for banning gay marriage is religous in nature. They want to inject Christian religous docterine into the constitution.

[Charles Martel]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

The only justification for banning gay marriage is religous in nature. They want to inject Christian religous docterine into the constitution.

Gays are married everyday, what in GOd's name are you talking about. You and I walk into the South Jersey clerks office and we're gonna be given a big fat NO to any request for a marriage license. Do the clerks or State know ANYTHING about our orientation? Please. The discrimination is gender discrimination, the issue is same sex marriage. Hundreds of thousands of gays are today married and have children, why were they not banned?

For the love of God.

[7960]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

The only justification for banning gay marriage is religous in nature. They want to inject Christian religous docterine into the constitution.

I searched for a few combinations of those words and it didn't show up. Can you link it for me?