I don't take Ahmedinejad's "wipe Israel off the map" comment seriously - Page 5

Diamond Cross · 09-22-2006, 09:04 PM

There is no such thing as an Israeli Apartheied. I've already seen the video and it is nothing more than a pack of lies. The true propoganda machine works against Israel, not Israel against the world.

And again, that line about Israel using proportionate response is a bunch of bull. Why is Israel expected to use proportionate response when no one else in the world is not expected to? With responses like this buch of bullshit, you have to wonder what drives it and there can only be one real answer -- and that answer has its roots in racism, even though almost a third of Israeli citizens are Arabians.

Israel has to use proportionate response. Israel has to hold her hand back and understand the situation. All of this is a bunch of bullshit.

If things were fair the world would react more against the terrorists that kill innocent civillians but unlike Israel they do not discriminate between civillians and military.

It's not an attitude of "Israel can do no wrong" but an attitude of being moreforgiving because the world won't forgive Israel while it forgives the terrorists. More than 90% of all criticism I've seen, and i've seen a lot through my studies ovr the last five years, has been against Israel. So to say the things you say is just wrong and blantant lies. Israel is the true undrdog. Israel does not do the things you claim it does.

If it bulldozes a house uit's because it's a terrorist safe house stocking weapons caches. It's Israel's response angainst terrorist groups that want to see nothing more than the utter destruction of Israel.

I challenge you to see the video's I've listed, and with an open mind, but something tells me that might be impossible. I've seen a lot of peopleonly all too willing to criticise Israel at every single turn but hardly criticises the terrorist countries thata re constantly attacking her civillian populaces.

The world doesn't do jack diddly against the terrorists that attack but when Israel reacts to protect itself, it's a bunch of people having coniption fits.

Israel does not do those things pro-activly. ISrael does those things to protect the citizens against terrorists, not the other way around.

The United Nations did not act to retrieve those two soldiers kidnapped off of Israeli soil until just recently. If they would've intervened on Israel's behalf much sooner and retrieved those soldiers, Israel would never had to have reacted. The United Nations never acts against terrorists when they attack Israel, but instead passes resolutions against Israel.

If Israel had the propoganda machine you say they did, like in the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, Then maybe the world would react more favorably towards Israel when the country is attackd. If Israel truly controlled the world like in the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, there would be much more favored reaction and more reaction against the terrorists.

Instead we get crap like "Israel's supposed to use proportionate response" when no other country in the world is expected to.

Israel is the true underdog. I'm just sorry to say you can't see that.

garbagemanlb · 09-22-2006, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by Diamond Cross

There is no such thing as an Israeli Apartheied. I've already seen the video and it is nothing more than a pack of lies. The true propoganda machine works against Israel, not Israel against the world.

And again, that line about Israel using proportionate response is a bunch of bull. Why is Israel expected to use proportionate response when no one else in the world is not expected to? With responses like this buch of bullshit, you have to wonder what drives it and there can only be one real answer -- and that answer has its roots in racism, even though almost a third of Israeli citizens are Arabians.

Israel has to use proportionate response. Israel has to hold her hand back and understand the situation. All of this is a bunch of bullshit.

If things were fair the world would react more against the terrorists that kill innocent civillians but unlike Israel they do not discriminate between civillians and military.

It's not an attitude of "Israel can do no wrong" but an attitude of being moreforgiving because the world won't forgive Israel while it forgives the terrorists. More than 90% of all criticism I've seen, and i've seen a lot through my studies ovr the last five years, has been against Israel. So to say the things you say is just wrong and blantant lies. Israel is the true undrdog. Israel does not do the things you claim it does.

If it bulldozes a house uit's because it's a terrorist safe house stocking weapons caches. It's Israel's response angainst terrorist groups that want to see nothing more than the utter destruction of Israel.

I challenge you to see the video's I've listed, and with an open mind, but something tells me that might be impossible. I've seen a lot of peopleonly all too willing to criticise Israel at every single turn but hardly criticises the terrorist countries thata re constantly attacking her civillian populaces.

The world doesn't do jack diddly against the terrorists that attack but when Israel reacts to protect itself, it's a bunch of people having coniption fits.

Israel does not do those things pro-activly. ISrael does those things to protect the citizens against terrorists, not the other way around.

The United Nations did not act to retrieve those two soldiers kidnapped off of Israeli soil until just recently. If they would've intervened on Israel's behalf much sooner and retrieved those soldiers, Israel would never had to have reacted. The United Nations never acts against terrorists when they attack Israel, but instead passes resolutions against Israel.

If Israel had the propoganda machine you say they did, like in the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, Then maybe the world would react more favorably towards Israel when the country is attackd. If Israel truly controlled the world like in the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, there would be much more favored reaction and more reaction against the terrorists.

Instead we get crap like "Israel's supposed to use proportionate response" when no other country in the world is expected to.

Israel is the true underdog. I'm just sorry to say you can't see that.

I have been openly critical of Hezbollah, Iran, and Israel. No one in the middle east has their hands clean, and you are simply doing exactly what you critisize other people for doing, which is to not be objective or be biased. I particularly liked your claim that every house bulldozed HAD to be a terrorist stronghold, as there can't be any other excuse. What about those in Israel who lobby for expanding settler territories further into 'Palestinian' land?

Israel is the underdog? Yeah, with a weak military like Israel, it really is helpless.

And while I believe suicide bombings and rocket attacks into Israel is horrible, I equally think it is horrible to level entire fucking city blocks in heavily civilian populations as a response.

People like you, who see one side as 'evil' and the other as 'good' are the EXACT reason why there exist so many obstacles in gaining any sort of solution to this conflict. The same goes for those on the Palestinian side who see their actions as nothing but 'righteous'.

motivez · 09-22-2006, 09:37 PM

I've seen them, the difference is that I'm willing to criticize both sides for their actions .. rather than simply one.

If you aren't willing to take a look at it from someone elses perspective, then you're deciding to be willfully ignorant. The world isn't black and white, and not all is good vs evil.

I also fail to see what being an underdog has to really do with anything. I don't root for the underdog simply because they're the underdog, and I don't give them special passes because of it either..

Diamond Cross · 09-22-2006, 10:29 PM

I have been openly critical of Hezbollah, Iran, and Israel. No one in the middle east has their hands clean, and you are simply doing exactly what you critisize other people for doing, which is to not be objective or be biased. I particularly liked your claim that every house bulldozed HAD to be a terrorist stronghold, as there can't be any other excuse. What about those in Israel who lobby for expanding settler territories further into 'Palestinian' land?

I've never seen any of your posts so I have no idea who you are. Still I can't agree with you. Israel does have her hands clean.

Yes I am very pro-Israel, because hardly anybody else is. And every house that is bulldozed is a terrorist safe house, Israel doesn't pull that kind of crap, it is just nonsense. If it were truly happening then Israel would have another reason to support the actions. It would probably be the equivalent of America's Eminent Domain which gives Ameria's government the right to just take any private land it wants to give it over to a corporation for development.

And it is not Palestinian land. There has never ever been a nation on earth called Palestine in any history record books. The British called the region Palestine prior to WW II but it was just a region, not a nation. There is no such thing as "Palestinian land" as there is no such thing as "Palestinians".The land was taken over through war which Israel never started.

Maybe America should give back California, Texas and New Mexico for the same reasons? After all, according to Aztlan and Mecha, those states are under illegal occupation and belongs to Mexico.

I also fail to see what being an underdog has to really do with anything. I don't root for the underdog simply because they're the underdog, and I don't give them special passes because of it either..

Israel is the underdog because they have not done the things you've stated, they are the underdog bcause because the world is against them, and they are not the terrorists you make them out to be.

When I first started getting into this argument, I did take an honest look at both sides for a long time, until I found out it is the terrorists who're doing all the lieing and the hard evidence supports Israel. I've been researching this subject for at least five years and all those claims of yours are not true and are just more propoganda by the Arabs who hate Israel and will use any means to bash the nation, and does so on a constant basis on their television, night after night, hour after hour, with such shit as Israeli Jews bake their holy bread with the blood of innocent Arabian children, and crap like that, and the denials of the holocaust saying it is a mere myth, and crap like that. Israel doesn't do that kind of crap.

Israel is the true underdog in all this. They have been under constant attack since day one, and all measures that are taken are taken to protect the civillian populace. Lets see how you react under those circumstances. LEt's see the kind of measure you'd support to be safe and secure. Maybe something like the USA Patriot Act or it's sequel, USA Patriot Act II. Or even worse.

This is a case of black and white, and Israel is white and the terrorists are black.

Why is it a case of black and white?

Because it all boils down to this:

If Israel wasn't under constant attack by terrorists then Israel would not have to take such measures.

None of them At all. Nada. Zip. Zero. Absolutely none.

All of these kinds of measures Israel takes are because of those attacks.

Stop the attacks, then maybe Israel won't do them.

Israel is constantly attacked month after month after month.

Israel has lost billions of dollars in construction

Israel has had hundreds of civillian casualties.

And I just cannot agree with you and your criticism of Israel.

garbagemanlb · 09-22-2006, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by Diamond Cross

I've never seen any of your posts so I have no idea who you are. Still I can't agree with you. Israel does have her hands clean.

Yes I am very pro-Israel, because hardly anybody else is. And every house that is bulldozed is a terrorist safe house, Israel doesn't pull that kind of crap, it is just nonsense. If it were truly happening then Israel would have another reason to support the actions. It would probably be the equivalent of America's Eminent Domain which gives Ameria's government the right to just take any private land it wants to give it over to a corporation for development.

And it is not Palestinian land. There has never ever been a nation on earth called Palestine in any history record books. The British called the region Palestine prior to WW II but it was just a region, not a nation. There is no such thing as "Palestinian land" as there is no such thing as "Palestinians".The land was taken over through war which Israel never started.

Maybe America should give back California, Texas and New Mexico for the same reasons? After all, according to Aztlan and Mecha, those states are under illegal occupation and belongs to Mexico.

Israel is the underdog because they have not done the things you've stated, they are the underdog bcause because the world is against them, and they are not the terrorists you make them out to be.

When I first started getting into this argument, I did take an honest look at both sides for a long time, until I found out it is the terrorists who're doing all the lieing and the hard evidence supports Israel. I've been researching this subject for at least five years and all those claims of yours are not true and are just more propoganda by the Arabs who hate Israel and will use any means to bash the nation, and does so on a constant basis on their television, night after night, hour after hour, with such shit as Israeli Jews bake their holy bread with the blood of innocent Arabian children, and crap like that, and the denials of the holocaust saying it is a mere myth, and crap like that. Israel doesn't do that kind of crap.

Israel is the true underdog in all this. They have been under constant attack since day one, and all measures that are taken are taken to protect the civillian populace. Lets see how you react under those circumstances. LEt's see the kind of measure you'd support to be safe and secure. Maybe something like the USA Patriot Act or it's sequel, USA Patriot Act II. Or even worse.

This is a case of black and white, and Israel is white and the terrorists are black.

Why is it a case of black and white?

Because it all boils down to this:

If Israel wasn't under constant attack by terrorists then Israel would not have to take such measures.

None of them At all. Nada. Zip. Zero. Absolutely none.

All of these kinds of measures Israel takes are because of those attacks.

Stop the attacks, then maybe Israel won't do them.

Israel is constantly attacked month after month after month.

Israel has lost billions of dollars in construction

Israel has had hundreds of civillian casualties.

And I just cannot agree with you and your criticism of Israel.

...and how many Lebanese civilians died in the latest conflict?

As I said in my above post, it is people like you (on both sides) who will never allow any kind of peace in the middle east.

The world isn't black and white, and there does exist such thing as moral ambiguities.

Diamond Cross · 09-22-2006, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by garbagemanlb

...and how many Lebanese civilians died in the latest conflict?

As I said in my above post, it is people like you (on both sides) who will never allow any kind of peace in the middle east.

The world isn't black and white, and there does exist such thing as moral ambiguities.

and how many Lebanese civilians died in the latest conflict

?

One, you certainly are going by balack and white, and this particular case is black and white.

Two: How many Israeli civillians died in the previous rocket attacks by Hezbollah?

Three: And how many Israeli soldiers didn't have to be kidnapped off of Israeli soil?

There is no compromise with people who won't compromise, and those are the terrorists.

Why are dead Lebanese civillians more valuable than dead Israeli civillians? Where is the lamentation for those dead Israeli civllians that have been killed by Hezbollah rockets?

Israel has always attempted to compromise with the people who are attacking her. The only succssful attempt so far has been with Egypt. And because of the peace treaty, Israel gave back the area it took in the war.

In every single peace treaty israel has been in since the nineties, Israel has given concessions, many times giving up much of the land that was asked for, only to be rebuffed and bombed again! With the Oslo accords, Arafat walked out, not Israel. Recently Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip and gave it up. The Palestinians formed their own state and started rocketing Israeli civillians again.

It's people like you who won't give peace a chance. Israel always has given peace a chance. The terrorists won't have it.

There is no grey area here. The terrorists have been bombing Israeli civillians for years and years and years. But Israel is the one that has to make pace? The failure of the peace process is Israel's fault?

Bullshit.

motivez · 09-23-2006, 01:16 PM

If you're unwilling to educate yourself by watching videos showing more than 1 perspective there's really nothing else to discuss with you in the thread.

You can't claim to be knowledgable enough to say Israel's hands are clean, or really to be able to assert anything about what's going on over there when you refuse yourself access to information that clearly contradicts what you've apparently taken as gospel, though.

Diamond Cross · 09-23-2006, 06:04 PM

i've seen many different videos from both sides of view when I first became interestedc in this conflict and you're just plain wrong. I've been researching this a long time and it's not by a frivolous choice that I've come to my conclusions. Israel doesn't blow up discos full of kids. Israel doesn't blow up churches on the holiest day. Israel does discriminate between civillians and military targets, and the reason why civllians die is because the terrorists use them as sheilds. Israel doesn't do that either.

There is no equivalency and no moral ambiguity here.

And you have yet to refute my point:

Israel would not have to take these kinds of measures you say it does if Israel wasn't under constant attack month after month after month.

Why doesn't the world react to the terrorist groups and their sponsoring ountries the way it reacts to Israels' military actions to defend itself? Why doesn't Jordan have a hundred resoultions for its sponsor of Hamas? Why doesn't Lebanon have a hundred resolutions against it for Hezbollah?

Doesn't kidnapping soldiers off of their home soil violate the Geneva conventions? Why didn't the United Nations act then against Lebanon when Hezbollah kidnapped those soldiers or fired rockets into the civillian populace? Wasn't the United Nations founded to prevent things like that from happening? If so then the United Nations has failed Israel.

And why must Israel use proportionate force when no other country in the world is expected to? Nobody has ever answered that question either.

Arabs are dieing along with Jews in this conflict too. Israel's population of Arabs makes up 29%, according to the CIA factbook. This also includes Palestinians who live in Israel with the full rights and privaleges that Israeli citizenship offers, including the right to vote and seats on the Parliament.

There is no moral ambiguity here.

The United Nations has failed Israel.

Scrum · 09-23-2006, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by garbagemanlb

I have been openly critical of Hezbollah, Iran, and Israel. No one in the middle east has their hands clean, and you are simply doing exactly what you critisize other people for doing, which is to not be objective or be biased. I particularly liked your claim that every house bulldozed HAD to be a terrorist stronghold, as there can't be any other excuse. What about those in Israel who lobby for expanding settler territories further into 'Palestinian' land?

Israel is the underdog? Yeah, with a weak military like Israel, it really is helpless.

And while I believe suicide bombings and rocket attacks into Israel is horrible, I equally think it is horrible to level entire fucking city blocks in heavily civilian populations as a response.

People like you, who see one side as 'evil' and the other as 'good' are the EXACT reason why there exist so many obstacles in gaining any sort of solution to this conflict. The same goes for those on the Palestinian side who see their actions as nothing but 'righteous'.

Great post.

There is plenty of blame to go around on both sides. Anyone who says different is delusional or dishonest.

Stylerod · 09-23-2006, 06:37 PM

I do agree with much of what Diamond Cross says. I also think that Isael may go overboard sometimes. That being said, I can't say I blame them. They feel they are not only fighting for their lives, but their very existance. If I was surrounded by people that wanted to kill me and my family because they don't like who I am and where I live, I like to think I would fight just as hard.

motivez · 09-23-2006, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Stylerod

I do agree with much of what Diamond Cross says. I also think that Isael may go overboard sometimes. That being said, I can't say I blame them. They feel they are not only fighting for their lives, but their very existance. If I was surrounded by people that wanted to kill me and my family because they don't like who I am and where I live, I like to think I would fight just as hard.

But somehow you begrudge the Palestinian people that same opportunity?

Stylerod · 09-23-2006, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

But somehow you begrudge the Palestinian people that same opportunity?

The Palestinian people are pawns being used by Muslim extreemists to keep Israel fighting. They don't want peace with Israel. Isn't that pretty obvious?

ballz2wallz · 09-23-2006, 07:48 PM

I don't think Israel does enough. If the US was attacked like Israel constantly is, or had rockets lobbed over the border, what do you think the response would be?

See Afghanistan if you're not sure.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 12-13-2006, 02:18 PM

I'm reviving this thread because of this story:

BREITBART.COM - Iran President: Israel Will Be Wiped Out

Earlier in the thread I said that I don't think Amedinajihad meant nuke isreal by "wipe israel off the map." I said he probably just meant the current government of Israel will no longer exist and the country will be called something else, much like the USSR to Russian Federation transition.

People here said that's crazy.

Well here's Amedinajihad's latest statement:

Iran's hard-line president said Tuesday that Israel will one day be "wiped out" as the Soviet Union was, drawing applause from participants in a conference casting doubt on the Holocaust.

This is further evidence that he doesn't want to nuke Israel, but instead effect a political transformation. If he didn't mean that, then why did he allude to the USSR? He was speaking to a bunch of anti-semites at a fucking holocaust denier convention. Do you really think he threw in the USSR allusion to soften his rhetoric for their virgin ears and make the subtle connection that he didn't want to use nukes?

ballz2wallz · 12-13-2006, 02:23 PM

This coming from a guy who says the holocaust was a myth.

Yeah, we should believe everything he says!

I wonder what he's really talking about though, considering Russia is still a country. It's not like Israel is trying to take over other countries, like the USSR was. I can't really see the comparison there.

Diamond Cross · 12-13-2006, 02:26 PM

Ferengi Rule Of Aquistion:

Declare peace once in a while. It confuses your enemies.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 12-13-2006, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

I wonder what he's really talking about though, considering Russia is still a country. It's not like Israel is trying to take over other countries, like the USSR was. I can't really see the comparison there.

He said like the USSR, not Russia. The USSR no longer exists.