new GOP slogan: "Find More, Use Less"

WickedLou9 · 07-22-2008, 10:22 AM

"Find More, Use Less" | The Next Right

So this is the latest GOP attempt to win the hearts and minds of the American voter. What are we going to do about the high price of oil and gasoline? Well we need to find more oil AND use less of it. Sounds nice I guess. Except for that whole "economics" thing. IF we find more oil, the price goes down. If the price goes down people will use more. The impetus for research into alternative fuels and energy goes away as it's no longer profitable.
To put it simply, they want to have thier cake and eat it too. Sorry guys, it doesn't work that way. So if oil is cheap what does it matter if we use more? Well, in the short term, it doesn't. But focusing on the short term is what leads to ultimate failure. Businesses who focus on short term profits at the cost of long term viability are doomed to fail. What that means is that sometimes you need to forgo the short term profits for an overall better long term picture. That is what we need now. We need to tighten our belts and accept this high cost for now. We need to push for long term investment into alternative energies. No body wants to hear that. No one wants to hear that prices will stay high. But it's our own fault. We knew this day was coming, and we could have prepared for it ahead of time if we had so chosen. We chose not to. Now we deal with it.

Find more use less? More like useless. I guess GOP leaders need to get in line behind Pelosi for an intro level course on economics.

7960 · 07-22-2008, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

"Find More, Use Less" | The Next Right

So this is the latest GOP attempt to win the hearts and minds of the American voter. What are we going to do about the high price of oil and gasoline? Well we need to find more oil AND use less of it. Sounds nice I guess. Except for that whole "economics" thing. IF we find more oil, the price goes down. If the price goes down people will use more. The impetus for research into alternative fuels and energy goes away as it's no longer profitable.
To put it simply, they want to have thier cake and eat it too. Sorry guys, it doesn't work that way. So if oil is cheap what does it matter if we use more? Well, in the short term, it doesn't. But focusing on the short term is what leads to ultimate failure. Businesses who focus on short term profits at the cost of long term viability are doomed to fail. What that means is that sometimes you need to forgo the short term profits for an overall better long term picture. That is what we need now. We need to tighten our belts and accept this high cost for now. We need to push for long term investment into alternative energies. No body wants to hear that. No one wants to hear that prices will stay high. But it's our own fault. We knew this day was coming, and we could have prepared for it ahead of time if we had so chosen. We chose not to. Now we deal with it.

Find more use less? More like useless. I guess GOP leaders need to get in line behind Pelosi for an intro level course on economics.

finding more means prices go down but nowhere near the levels it was. people see the need for alternative fuels/transportation, research has started. finding more oil means prices may go down a bit but really it means prices will stop going UP while that research turns into real solutions we can use.

saabguy · 07-22-2008, 10:41 AM

maybe having a taste of $145/bbl oil has forced americans to alter their ways and find new ways to cut back, so IF we are allowed to drill our own natural resources, we will have already become used to a new "standard of living" and therefore will use less (at lower costs, that will keep more money in our pockets).

I know with lower energy costs there will be some shift back towards more usage, but not completely. personally, i've started carpooling with my wife, and we're getting a pellet stove this winter to supplement our propane heating. even if oil/gas dropped, i can still see myself sticking to these energy-reducing habits and pocketing the extra money i'd be saving with lower fuel costs.

thewise1 · 07-22-2008, 11:37 AM

It most certainly does work that way good sir.

I have a deep hatred for the GOP on social issues, but when it comes to economics - and I'm talking platform level stuff, not the actual Republicard attitude we see most of the time - they have their head on straight.

WickedLou9 · 07-22-2008, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by thewise1

It most certainly does work that way good sir.

I have a deep hatred for the GOP on social issues, but when it comes to economics - and I'm talking platform level stuff, not the actual Republicard attitude we see most of the time - they have their head on straight.

So if they increase supply and prices come down... demand will also go down? You got some 'splainin to do lucy.

thewise1 · 07-22-2008, 11:41 AM

as was said, prices are never going to be 'cheap' again. Between india and china that's just not going to happen.

nbiggershaft · 07-22-2008, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

So if they increase supply and prices come down... demand will also go down? You got some 'splainin to do lucy.

Voluntary reduction worked for California with electricity. It could work other places with gas. Plus, like 7960 said, the price is already high, and the ball is already rolling on higher mileage vehicles.

7960 · 07-22-2008, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

So if they increase supply and prices come down... demand will also go down? You got some 'splainin to do lucy.

why do you hate the small businessman?

WickedLou9 · 07-22-2008, 12:48 PM

I have never seen so many free market advocates suddenly turn thier back on the free market.

WickedLou9 · 07-22-2008, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

Voluntary reduction worked for California with electricity. It could work other places with gas. Plus, like 7960 said, the price is already high, and the ball is already rolling on higher mileage vehicles.

I don't know if it's truly voluntary in CA. I mean they have rolling blackouts because they can't meet demand.

WickedLou9 · 07-22-2008, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

why do you hate the small businessman?

The small businessman that comes up with ways of using something other than oil will be the next bill gates. The higher the price of oil, the faster innovation will happen, the greater the push to get off of oil will be. IF oil goes to 150 or 160 dollars a barrel, there will be less resistance to nuclear power plants. Every penny that we spend looking for more oil is a penny wasted. If we know oil is always going to be expensive no matter what we do, why should we spend even one cent on looking for more of it?

7960 · 07-22-2008, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

The small businessman that comes up with ways of using something other than oil will be the next bill gates.

I'm talking about the small businessman that's going out of business today because he can't afford fuel. A friend owns an excavation company. Three or four years ago he paid $40k/month for fuel. He just complained that he paid $110k at his last delivery. He's letting people go because he can't afford to pass the entire bill to his customers.

Same for landscapers, independent truck drivers, etcetcetc...people who depend on gas/oil for their livelihood.

The higher the price of oil, the faster innovation will happen, the greater the push to get off of oil will be. IF oil goes to 150 or 160 dollars a barrel, there will be less resistance to nuclear power plants. Every penny that we spend looking for more oil is a penny wasted.

False dichotomy........the pennies we're spending looking for oil wouldn't have gone to finding/funding/researching alternatives to oil.

saabguy · 07-22-2008, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

I'm talking about the small businessman that's going out of business today because he can't afford fuel. A friend owns an excavation company. Three or four years ago he paid $40k/month for fuel. He just complained that he paid $110k at his last delivery. He's letting people go because he can't afford to pass the entire bill to his customers.

Same for landscapers, independent truck drivers, etcetcetc...people who depend on gas/oil for their livelihood.

False dichotomy........the pennies we're spending looking for oil wouldn't have gone to finding/funding/researching alternatives to oil.

my mom has had a small retail store for almost 20 years and after expanding her business about 5 years ago, she just told her landlord she wants him to put the old wall back up to decrease her square footage because it will be too expensive to heat this winter. instead of spending money on new inventory to satisfy her customer base, it's all going towards energy costs.

JaJae · 07-22-2008, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I have never seen so many free market advocates suddenly turn thier back on the free market.

If your question is will people use less gasoline if the prices are higher? Of course the answer is yes. But the reality is that will have major impacts on our economy. Nothing we can do at this point will make gasoline cheap again, we can only hope to keep the prices managable until we find alternative fuels. The Republicans seem to realize this. Democrats seem to want to run us off a cliff of ever increasing gasoline prices on a pipe dream that we can sustain the increased oil costs we've seen over the past 5 years for another few decades. We can't sustain the increases we've seen for the amount of time it will take for alternative fuels to go mainstream. Oil prices will only increase exponentially as India/China start to modernize and our economy goes to crap because of poor energy policies.

7960 · 07-22-2008, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

If your question is will people use less gasoline if the prices are higher? Of course the answer is yes. But the reality is that will have major impacts on our economy. Nothing we can do at this point will make gasoline cheap again, we can only hope to keep the prices managable until we find alternative fuels. The Republicans seem to realize this. Democrats seem to want to run us off a cliff of ever increasing gasoline prices on a pipe dream that we can sustain the increased oil costs we've seen over the past 5 years for another few decades. We can't sustain the increases we've seen for the amount of time it will take for alternative fuels to go mainstream. Oil prices will only increase exponentially as India/China start to modernize and our economy goes to shit because of poor energy policies.

I fully expect someone's going to post the article about drilling in the US only reducing the price of oil 50 cents or something.

The part people are missing is that without drilling the price is going UP. With drilling at *worst* the increase in price will SLOW DOWN so people can catch their breath while alternatives come into common use. At *BEST* the price will go down while alternatives come into common use. Nobody thinks drilling in the US will mean we can stop looking for alternatives.

nbiggershaft · 07-22-2008, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

I fully expect someone's going to post the article about drilling in the US only reducing the price of oil 50 cents or something.

The part people are missing is that without drilling the price is going UP. With drilling at *worst* the increase in price will SLOW DOWN so people can catch their breath while alternatives come into common use. At *BEST* the price will go down while alternatives come into common use. Nobody thinks drilling in the US will mean we can stop looking for alternatives.

I would be happy just seeing billions of dollars coming into the American economy by drilling with the current price of oil. Maybe we can pay down a little debt with all the tax money.

WickedLou9 · 07-22-2008, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

If your question is will people use less gasoline if the prices are higher? Of course the answer is yes. But the reality is that will have major impacts on our economy. Nothing we can do at this point will make gasoline cheap again, we can only hope to keep the prices managable until we find alternative fuels. The Republicans seem to realize this. Democrats seem to want to run us off a cliff of ever increasing gasoline prices on a pipe dream that we can sustain the increased oil costs we've seen over the past 5 years for another few decades. We can't sustain the increases we've seen for the amount of time it will take for alternative fuels to go mainstream. Oil prices will only increase exponentially as India/China start to modernize and our economy goes to crap because of poor energy policies.

We already have alternative fuels. We have nuclear, we have wind, We have solar. We have fuel cell cars and electric cars. The technology is here now. The problem is that fuel is cheap enough that building up the infrastructure to support these new technologies still doesn't make much sense. I think you guys are being too short sighted. Yes it will hurt right now. But I don't think we can avoid it, and if we accept the fact that we are going to have to tighten our belts now, we can reap much bigger rewards much sooner.

7960 · 07-22-2008, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

We already have alternative fuels. We have nuclear, we have wind, We have solar. We have fuel cell cars and electric cars. The technology is here now. The problem is that fuel is cheap enough that building up the infrastructure to support these new technologies still doesn't make much sense.

this is complete crap. "we have nuclear, we have wind, we have solar, we have fuel cell cars and electric cars".........the technology is here but it's not fully baked and/or there's not enough to go around so if we had to depend on it we'd be completely screwed.

THIS is the transition...NOW is when we're developing the alternatives, rules/laws are being put in place to nudge (force) energy/automotive in that direction but there is no way we could switch over to any or all of those technologies now and not bring the country to a standstill.

WickedLou9 · 07-22-2008, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

this is complete crap. "we have nuclear, we have wind, we have solar, we have fuel cell cars and electric cars".........the technology is here but it's not fully baked and/or there's not enough to go around so if we had to depend on it we'd be completely screwed.

THIS is the transition...NOW is when we're developing the alternatives, rules/laws are being put in place to nudge (force) energy/automotive in that direction but there is no way we could switch over to any or all of those technologies now and not bring the country to a standstill.

Yeah but trying to keep oil prices low could prevent the transitition until prices spike again and there is nothing we can do. If we can somehow temporarily slow the climb in oil prices we will prolong the pain we are feeling and extend outwards the amount of time it takes to convert to alternative sources. It's like ripping off a band-aid.