Parents refusing to let go - Page 2

7960 · 07-23-2008, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by thatguyoverthere

I don't doubt they're real, I just don't see where they're interfering with this "outside the classroom" learning that you described.

WHAT? When a dad shows up at a frat party because he wants to hang out with his kid then he's interfering with his kid's learning outside the classroom.

It doesn't matter how common clingy parents are becoming, it's still a minor nuisance when compared to the major problem of parents who aren't involved at all.

Given the choice of over-involved or under-involved, I'd choose under.

thatguyoverthere · 07-23-2008, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

Funny you word it that way because that's exactly what college is.

But you're constantly saying that they're ADULTS!

Why would individuals need a safe place to screw up, yet should be treated as mature adults?

You say they're adults who should be treated by their parents as the adults they are, yet these same adults need to be provided a place to screw up like immature children who aren't ready for adult society!

Kids who screw up at college usually don't graduate. Parents are not sending their children to college to screw up and waste their money. If I was a parent paying for my kids college, I would want them to graduate.

College is a place to get a piece of paper that you can show at job interviews and make a bigger salary. College is also a place to get information put into your head so that you can do your better paying job that required a college degree to get. College is intended to be more than holding pens for immature children. College is not summer camp.

7960 · 07-23-2008, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by thatguyoverthere

But you're constantly saying that they're ADULTS!

Why would individuals need a safe place to screw up, yet should be treated as mature adults?

college is a nebulous area...it's a transition time where they're expected to be adults with the recognition that they're not going to get it right the first time. Your idea that it's cheaper to just send them to live in a city for a while is wrong....it may help them "grow up" quick but it may also end up with them bankrupt/in debt, in jail, etc.

You say they're adults who should be treated by their parents as the adults they are, yet these same adults need to be provided a place to screw up like immature children who aren't ready for adult society!

Exactly.

Kids who screw up at college usually don't graduate.

this is so wrong........... EVERY kid screws up at college.

College is a place to get a piece of paper that you can show at job interviews and make a bigger salary. College is also a place to get information put into your head so that you can do your better paying job that required a college degree to get. College is intended to be more than holding pens for immature children. College is not summer camp.

college is a safe place to learn, which also means it's a safe place to screw up.

thatguyoverthere · 07-23-2008, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

WHAT? When a dad shows up at a frat party because he wants to hang out with his kid then he's interfering with his kid's learning outside the classroom.

If Dad brings the beer, he's not interfering, he's contributing.

Besides, partying with your buddies is not a vital "outside the classroom" learning experience that can only be provided at college and that prepares one to be a productive member of society.

Originally Posted by 7960

Given the choice of over-involved or under-involved, I'd choose under.

There you go, discouraging parental involvement again.

If the parents are paying for their kid's college education, they should, and have every right to be, involved.

Given the choice of involved or not involved, I'd choose involved, even at the risk of over-involvement, because the risk of over involvement is very small and the negative effects of over-involvement is not a serious problem when compared to the problem of non-involvement.

As a general rule, parents should be encouraged to be involved with their child's education rather than discouraged, even at the tiny, tiny risk of a very, very small minority of parents being over involved.

With parental involvement, the chances of going to college as well as graduating college increase. With lesser parental involvement, the chances decrease. Adhering to your position would mean less kids are likely to go to college and less kids are likely to graduate college. If that's the way you prefer it, I won't presume to try and change your mind. Personally, I think education is valuable, and that the more people who have it, the better.

7960 · 07-23-2008, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by thatguyoverthere

If Dad brings the beer, he's not interfering, he's contributing.

wrong. his kid is there to do lots of stuff but none of them includes hanging with dad.

There you go, discouraging parental involvement again.

wrong.

you're refusing to acknowledge that parent can be overbearing. you're going to say i'm refusing to acknowledge it's a minor issue. we disagree.

Given the choice of involved or not involved, I'd choose involved,

I didn't say involved or not involved. I said over or under involved.

thatguyoverthere · 07-23-2008, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

college is a nebulous area...it's a transition time where they're expected to be adults with the recognition that they're not going to get it right the first time.

So, are they kids or adults? You emphasized their adult nature to such a degree that you capitalized it. You said they were adults, and the parents should treat them like the adults that they are.

Originally Posted by 7960

Your idea that it's cheaper to just send them to live in a city for a while is wrong....it may help them "grow up" quick but it may also end up with them bankrupt/in debt, in jail, etc.

So they AREN'T adults after all, are they? They can't handle living alone without supervision or guidance. Why didn't you just admit that in the first place instead of going on about how these kids are adults?

If they can't handle living in a different city, how are they going to handle living in a college? It's because, in your view, college is just some sort of playpen designed to protect the kids. If college is a playpen, paid for by their parents, why would you then claim that their parents shouldn't be involved with how their children are cared for? It seems that the kids whose parents are paying for their college are still living under the parent's care, and the college is just taking care of the kids by proxy. How do you then make the case that the kids should be treated as independent adults by their parents when in reality they are nothing of the sort?

Originally Posted by 7960

this is so wrong........... EVERY kid screws up at college.

Every kid screws up at college because everybody makes mistakes regardless of age. When I say "screw up" I'm not talking about average mistakes everyone makes daily, I'm talking about failing a class or flunking out of school.

Kids are not encouraged to screw up at college, it ends up wasting their time and their parents money. When a kid fails or flunks out, no parent paying for the college simply shrugs their shoulders and says "Oh well, that's what college is for." It's not what college is for.

Parents who pay for their kids to go to college want to see their kids ultimately succeed, stay in school, and graduate, not to screw up, fail, or drop out.

7960 · 07-23-2008, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by thatguyoverthere

So, are they kids or adults?

Yes.

If they can't handle living in a different city, how are they going to handle living in a college?

Most kids

why would you then claim that their parents shouldn't be involved with how their children are cared for?

I didn't claim their parents shouldn't be involved. Saying this over and over is getting tedious.

Every kid screws up at college because everybody makes mistakes regardless of age. When I say "screw up" I'm not talking about average mistakes everyone makes daily, I'm talking about failing a class or flunking out of school.

Most kids fail a class in college. Many change majors because they can't or won't do what's required of the major they choose.

Kids are not encouraged to screw up at college, it ends up wasting their time and their parents money. When a kid fails or flunks out, no parent paying for the college simply shrugs their shoulders and says "Oh well, that's what college is for." It's not what college is for.

When a kid fails a class, yes, it is. Flunking out is different. But I won't be surprised if my kid(s) fail a class. I won't be happy about it, but it won't surprise me if they do.

Parents who pay for their kids to go to college want to see their kids ultimately succeed, stay in school, and graduate, not to screw up, fail, or drop out.

If they learn from it, screwing up and failing is part of the path to success.

Phantom · 07-23-2008, 01:36 PM

So what happens when these coddled kids get out of college? Should the parents be calling employers to ensure the kids are properly using the college educations they paid for? When does the control end?

thatguyoverthere · 07-23-2008, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

wrong. his kid is there to do lots of stuff but none of them includes hanging with dad.

What world do you live on where the addition of beer to a frat didn't increase the total level of partying?

Our dear, late President Blutarsky is rolling over in his grave. Look at that picture above and imagine him with one, lone tear rolling down his cheek.

If Dad is bringing the beer, he is contributing positively to the partying with his buddies, which, you've implied, is an essential component to vital "outside the classroom" college learning that this Dad is paying for.

If Mom is screwing a student's roommate, she's contributing to "outside the classroom" college learning as well, as long as she teaches him about proper condom use and the safe care and handling of cougars. Every student should have a roommate whose parents were so involved!

Originally Posted by 7960

you're refusing to acknowledge that parent can be overbearing. you're going to say i'm refusing to acknowledge it's a minor issue. we disagree.

Is that what it's all about for you? That I won't acknowledge that parents can be overbearing? Sure, parents can be overbearing. I haven't denied that.

What I won't acknowledge is that overbearing parents are a major problem, because they aren't, no matter how much you try to imply otherwise. Overbearing parents are a minor nuisance and a tiny minority.

You keep trying to make overbearing parents such a problem that you would rather parents be less involved with their kid's education than risk having a few overbearing parents. You've made overbearing parents such a big deal that you can't admit that they're a very small non-problem when compared to the majority of parents that are under-involved or aren't involved at all.

Originally Posted by 7960

I didn't say involved or not involved. I said over or under involved.

I know what you said. You are advocating less parental involvement as compared with more. You are encouraging less involvement.

If parents are under involved, there will be less kids going to college. If parents are under involved, there will be less kids graduating college. You want parents under involved because, to you, the influence of a small number of annoying over-involved parents is worse than having more kids not going to college or not graduating college.

I, on the other hand, think the arguably negligible negative effects of a very small number of overbearing parents is an acceptable risk of encouraging parental involvement when I realize that the vast majority of parents are under-involved or not involved at all.

thatguyoverthere · 07-23-2008, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by thatguyoverthere

So, are they kids or adults?

Originally Posted by 7960

Yes.

Originally Posted by 7960

I didn't claim their parents shouldn't be involved. Saying this over and over is getting tedious.

You prefer less involvement. Less involvement means less kids go to college. Less involvement means less kids will graduate college. And this is all okay with you because you dislike a tiny minority of overbearing parents whose negative effects on the students is barely negligible. I'm as tired of repeating it as you are of hearing it. Just let me know when you finally get the point, and I'll stop. Until then, prepare to hear it again and again. When you get tired of it, you'll only have yourself to blame.

7960 · 07-23-2008, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by thatguyoverthere

I, on the other hand, think the arguably negligible negative effects of a very small number of overbearing parents is an acceptable risk of encouraging parental involvement when I realize that the vast majority of parents are under-involved or not involved at all.

I'm done.

The article has nothing to do with encouraging or discouraging involvement. It was about how the number of overbearing parents is increasing. From what I saw, they're right. No matter how many times you say I want to discourage involvement you're wrong. It's just that I'm recognizing the difference between healthy involvement and unhealthy "control."

7960 · 07-23-2008, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by thatguyoverthere

You prefer less involvement.

I do not. But keep lying about what I'm saying so you seem right.

IminWonderland · 07-24-2008, 03:54 AM

Originally Posted by 7960

I'm done.

The article has nothing to do with encouraging or discouraging involvement. It was about how the number of overbearing parents is increasing. From what I saw, they're right. No matter how many times you say I want to discourage involvement you're wrong. It's just that I'm recognizing the difference between healthy involvement and unhealthy "control."

Oh totally right! At my school I've heard the first person narratives of parents who are essentially controlling the student through their University experience, and I think it is a shame. You gotta cut the cord.

I am teaching Freshman Comp this year. I hope I get a parent call...

Overbearing mother: Hi, I'm Timmy's Mom, can you tell me if he has been turning in his work?
Me: No.

Overbearing dad: My son recieved an F in your class, I demand to know why!
ME: He earned the F, and ask him.

CLICK.

kinggovernor · 07-24-2008, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by thatguyoverthere

With parental involvement, the chances of going to college as well as graduating college increase. With lesser parental involvement, the chances decrease.

do you have any proof of that?

IminWonderland · 07-24-2008, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

do you have any proof of that?

Seriously. My parents could give a rats ass about my education, and I made it to Grad school.

7960 · 07-24-2008, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

Seriously. My parents could give a rats ass about my education, and I made it to Grad school.

mine were overbearing the first time I went and I dropped out.

mine were interested and supportive when I went back and I graduated with honors.

kinggovernor · 07-24-2008, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

Seriously. My parents could give a rats ass about my education, and I made it to Grad school.

I have paid for 100% of my education, my parents are proud of me and everything that I have accomplished but they would be proud of me if I had quit school and pounded nails for a living.

IminWonderland · 07-25-2008, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

I have paid for 100% of my education, my parents are proud of me and everything that I have accomplished but they would be proud of me if I had quit school and pounded nails for a living.

The moral is, never underestimate the power of desire. If you want it, you'll work for it no matter if Daddy or Mommy holds your hand.

It's a symptom of a larger parenting philosophy which believes in being "friends" with offspring and "protecting" them, which is really doing neither.

Smull · 07-25-2008, 08:22 PM

Pardon my rant...

I'm in college, I'll be a Junior when I go back at the end of August, and let me say this if a kid has parents who try to protect him and check up on him all the time or who show up all the time, buy him beer and fucks his roommates, I'd fuckin make fun of him. I'd give that kid such a fucking hard time, I would tell his ass to grow the fuck up every chance I got. I would encourage him and peer pressure him to break free of that to the best of my ability. And btw, President Blutarsky sabotaged the homecomming parade to stick it to Dean Wormer because he was his own man, notta Mama's boy.

At 18 a kid is an adult (and even this age is kinda old, in most places and at most times throughout history he would have a 15yr old wife and 2 kids by now and probably fought in a war or two). If the parent doesn't think that the kid is responsible enough to go to college and take care of him/herself then don't spend the money. My parents are helping me out some, but if they started to pull some of the shit mentioned in the article I'd cut myself loose, take out a few loans find a way to make it work. Being involved is fine, being concerned is fine, giving them advice is fine, but the kid has to forge his own place in this world. And parents that insist on being involved to the extent that the original article mentioned and hurt their kids ability to function independently. And while they are still a minority, they are sadly, a growing minority. Its happening more and more often and it drives me nuts. I'll personally feel that I'll have done my job as a parent when my children (if/when i have them) don't need me anymore.

kinggovernor · 07-26-2008, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

The moral is, never underestimate the power of desire. If you want it, you'll work for it no matter if Daddy or Mommy holds your hand.

It's a symptom of a larger parenting philosophy which believes in being "friends" with offspring and "protecting" them, which is really doing neither.

I wasn't friends with my parents until I moved out, now we get along great