Christianity in the public sector, politics, and government

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by lew

I'd rather live in a monarchy than in a democracy.

Then you better move.

I suspect what you are saying is you don't want to live in a democracy as defined by the founding fathers.

Why do you everyone insist on one narrow definition of democracy?

No one is suggesting the US is a direct democracy, or isn't a republic.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by lew

I'd rather live in a monarchy than in a democracy.

Hell, I'd rather live in a theocracy than a democracy.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by Kytro

No one is suggesting the US is a direct democracy, or isn't a republic.

You're refusing to call it a republic when you purposely use such blanketed and vague terms as "representative democracy" in lieu of something more accurate.

"Constitutional republic" is the MOST ACCURATE way of describing our form of government.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Kytro

Then you better move.

I suspect what you are saying is you don't want to live in a democracy as defined by the founding fathers.

Why do you everyone insist on one narrow definition of democracy?

No one is suggesting the US is a direct democracy, or isn't a republic.

This isn't just some sort of argument about semantics. A republic is NOT a democracy. A democracy has no rule of law - only the rule of the majority. A republic has a rule of law. They're fundamentally different. Just because people vote in both systems doesn't mean they are the same.

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by lew

This isn't just some sort of argument about semantics. A republic is NOT a democracy. A democracy has no rule of law - only the rule of the majority. A republic has a rule of law. They're fundamentally different. Just because people vote in both systems doesn't mean they are the same.

That is incorrect, a democracy by definition:

de‧moc‧ra‧cy  /dɪˈmɒkrəsi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-mok-ruh-see] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -cies.
1. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
2. a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies.
3. a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.
4. political or social equality; democratic spirit.
5. the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.
[Origin: 1525–35; < MF démocratie < LL dēmocratia < Gk dēmokratía popular government, equiv. to dēmo- demo- + -kratia -cracy]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
de·moc·ra·cy (d-mkr-s) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "democracy" [p]
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies

1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4. Majority rule.
5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.



[French d�mocratie, from Late Latin dmocratia, from Greek dmokrati : dmos, people; see d- in Indo-European Roots + -krati, -cracy.]

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The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law - Cite This Source

Main Entry: de·moc·ra·cy
Pronunciation: di-'mä-kr&-sE
Function: noun
Inflected Form: plural -cies
1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
2 : a political unit that has a democratic government —dem·o·crat·ic /"de-m&-'kra-tik/ adjective —dem·o·crat·i·cal·ly adverb
Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
WordNet - Cite This Source

democracy

n 1: the political orientation of those who favor government by the people or by their elected representatives 2: a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them [syn: republic, commonwealth] [ant: autocracy] 3: the doctrine that the numerical majority of an organized group can make decisions binding on the whole group [syn: majority rule]

You are applying some other, specific definiton.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Kytro

That is incorrect, a democracy by definition:



You are applying some other, specific definiton.

I don't care what dictionary.com says. Dictionary.com is not written by political theorists. "Common" people may think that a republic is a democracy but political theorists do not.

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by lew

I don't care what dictionary.com says. Dictionary.com is not written by political theorists. "Common" people may think that a republic is a democracy but political theorists do not.

As I said, you are applying a restrictive definition to the word.

The political theorists you speak of are, as wikipedia says, primarily in the US and are conservative and libertarian.

A republic does not have to be a democracy, but the two can exist.

The principles of democracy is that the people have the power. This power can be direct, or it can be via representivies.

It can be unchecked, or it can be checked.

A democracy does not have to give people unchecked power, nor does it exclude a nation built on a given set of principles.

Republicanism and Democracy

Republicanism is a system that replaces inherited rule with citizenship based on individual liberty and civic virtue. The keys are a positive emphasis on liberty, and a negative rejection of corruption and all forms of aristocracy, its trappings, and its way of thinking and ordering society.[2] In the late 20th century there has been so much convergence in between democracy and republicanism that confusion results. As a distinct political theory republicanism originated in classical history and became important in early modern Europe, as typfied by Machiavelli. It became especially important as a cause of the American Revolution and the French Revolution in the 1770s and 1790s. [4] All republicans rejected inherited elites and aristocracies, but the question was open whether the republic, in order to restrain unchecked majority rule, should have an unelected upper chamber, the members perhaps appointed meritorious experts, or should have a constitutional monarch.[5]

Although conceptually separate from democracy, republicanism included the key principles of rule by the consent of the governed and sovereignty of the people. In effect republicanism meant that the kings and aristocracies were not the real rulers, but rather the people as a whole were. Exactly how the people were to rule was an issue of democracy--republicanism itself did not specify how.[6] In the United States the solution was the creation of political parties that were popularly based on the votes of the people, and which controlled the government. See Republicanism in the United States. Many exponents of republicanism, such as Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson were strong promoters of representative democracy. However other supporters of republicanism, such as John Adams and Alexander Hamilton, were more distrustful of majority rule and sought a government with more power for elites. There were similar debates in many other democratizing nations. [7]

From the wiki article on Republiciansim

[Dumpy Dooby]

Oh Hell, while we're quote mining Wikipedia....

According to James Woodburn, in The American Republic and Its Government, "the constitutional republic with its limitations on popular government is clearly involved in the Constitution, as seen in the election of the President, the election of the Senate and the appointment of the Supreme Court." He says in a republic, as distinguished from a democracy, the people are not only checked in choosing officials but also in making laws. (Woodburn, James Albert. The American Republic and Its Government: An Analysis of the Government of the United States, G. P. Putnam, 1903, pp. 58-59 ) A Bill of Rights exists in the U.S. Constitution which protections certain individual rights. The individual rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights cannot be voted away by the majority of citizens if they wished to oppress a minority. To eliminate these rights would require government officals overcoming constitutional checks as well as a super majority of vote of Congress to amend the Constitution.
[ Constitutional republic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ]

and...

As a representative democracy involves significant powers given to the legislators, there are usually constitutional (as in a constitutional republic or a constitutional monarchy) or have other measures to balance representative power
[ Representative democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ]

Though I'm with lew regarding them being fundamentally different. But in any event, like I've been telling you for the past two pages, it's inaccurate to call the US a democracy of any sort. It's a "constitutional republic," regardless of whose definition of "democracy" we are using.

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

Though I'm with lew regarding them being fundamentally different. But in any event, like I've been telling you for the past two pages, it's inaccurate to call the US a democracy of any sort. It's a "constitutional republic," regardless of whose definition of "democracy" we are using.

I didn't deny it is a constitutional republic, of course it is. The only point I am making, and have continually made is that It can be a republic and a democracy at the same time.

The difference here is that "consititutional republic" is fairly specific, and "democracy" is not.

I figure we probably won't agree on this even though there is nothing in the definition, political or otherwise of a democracy that excludes the US.

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by Kytro

Then you better move.

I suspect what you are saying is you don't want to live in a democracy as defined by the founding fathers.

Why do you everyone insist on one narrow definition of democracy?

No one is suggesting the US is a direct democracy, or isn't a republic.

Because in a democracy they can pass any law they want. The US has limits that keep the govt from passing laws.

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

Because in a democracy they can pass any law they want. The US has limits that keep the govt from passing laws.

Only if it complies with the consitituion or other guidelines set for the nation.

There is nothing in definition of democracy that says they must be able to pass any law they want to.

The constitution of the US can be altered, by the people, through their representitves.

The power is ultimately invested in the people: democracy.

It meets the definition for a democracy, amoung other things (republic).

Can anyone show how it fails to meet the critera for a democracy. I don't mean a specific style of democracy either, I mean any style.

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by Kytro

There is nothing in definition of democracy that says they must be able to pass any law they want to.

That is the very definition of a democracy. plurality=law

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

That is the very definition of a democracy. plurality=law

That is a definition, it isn't the only one.

If the people of the US so wished, is there any law they could not have passed, via their representives one way or another (through amendments and legislation) ?

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by Kytro

That is a definition, it isn't the only one.

If the people of the US so wished, is there any law they could not have passed, via their representives one way or another (through amendments and legislation) ?

Legally ? Yes many laws couldnt be passed. The people/representatives dont have the right to take away free speech, press etc....

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

Legally ? Yes many laws couldnt be passed. The people/representatives dont have the right to take away free speech, press etc....

So you are saying that it couldn't be amended out of the consititution ?

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by Kytro

So you are saying that it couldn't be amended out of the consititution ?

No, actually it can't ... not without violating some other laws.

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

No, actually it can't ... not without violating some other laws.

Can you explain? I'm not familiar with the workings of US constitution.

Are there really things in it that can never be changed?
If so how were they added in?
Can other thing be added that cannot change?

This purely from an interest perspective, Cheers.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by Kytro

Can you explain? I'm not familiar with the workings of US constitution.

Are there really things in it that can never be changed?
If so how were they added in?
Can other thing be added that cannot change?

This purely from an interest perspective, Cheers.

I'm pretty sure lew or someone would be able to explain it better. IIRC, though, things can only be added, and nothing can be removed. The added parts can supercede previously added parts (i.e., alcohol prohibition). Nothing can supercede the "Checks and Balances," and I'm pretty sure nothing can supercede the Bill Of Rights.

Currently, we are having a problem with unwritten laws being interpreted by the Judicial branch. That's going around the other two branches (law wasn't legislated, and therefore, there was no law to be enforced or interpreted), which, in my opinion, should result in the same punishments that are given to those that commit treason. The problem is, however, that it would be the Judicial branch that decides if the judiciaries are interpreting the law properly. So basically, the Judicial branch is attempting to run this country now.