Christianity in the public sector, politics, and government

Dumpy Dooby · 09-21-2006, 11:51 PM

The Cold War seems to mark the beginning of this newfound religiosity in American politics and government. That's when we put "In God We Trust" on our money and "under God" in The Pledge; we did it to prove that the ATHEIST COMMIES couldn't bring us down! It was all propaganda bullshit. Nowadays, Christians take it a step even further with wanting to put the 10 Commandments in our court rooms and crosses at memorial sites.

To those Christians, I ask the following:

How would you feel if our money said, "There is no God" or "In God I Distrust"?
How would you feel if The Pledge said, "under the free-thinking rule of non-theistic individuals"?
How would you feel if we put the The Eleven Satanic Rules Of The Earth in our courthouses, city halls, etc.?
How would you feel if we started putting up pentagrams to commemorate large groups of people (i.e., that issue with the large cross in San Diego that was used to represent Korean War vetarans) on public memorial grounds?

lew · 09-22-2006, 12:00 AM

Actually, In God We Trust has been on money since the Civil War. So you're wrong on that point.

And to answer the rest of your questions, I wouldn't care if that is what the Founding Fathers believed and it was used as historical evidence of their belief. Being that none were satanists, I would be offended if they put it on national buildings.

Dumpy Dooby · 09-22-2006, 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by lew

Actually, In God We Trust has been on money since the Civil War. So you're wrong on that point.

My bad. It wasn't made the official motto until the Cold War. I was WAY off!

Actually, I would say that having that as our nation motto is even worse than having it on our currency.

But that's all irrelevant. The question holds just as much weight regardless of when the phrase was put on our money.

And to answer the rest of your questions, I wouldn't care if that is what the Founding Fathers believed and it was used as historical evidence of their belief. Being that none were satanists, I would be offended if they put it on national buildings.

The Founding Fathers were hardly adherents of the Ten Commandments. They might have had core Christian beliefs, but most of them were deists, and most didn't believe in eternal punishment for those that do not believe in God. You do remember why people left Europe, right?

In fact, I want you to find me a quote from one of the leading (use your best judgement regarding this conditional) Founding Fathers that shows that he was an adherent of the Ten Commandments. Even if you do, I'm sure I could find more that did not adhere to the Commandments ... and remember, I'm talking about ALL TEN (afterall, you just implied that they believed in the Commandments).

Scrum · 09-22-2006, 12:24 AM

Originally Posted by lew

And to answer the rest of your questions, I wouldn't care if that is what the Founding Fathers believed and it was used as historical evidence of their belief. Being that none were satanists, I would be offended if they put it on national buildings.

So you would be offended because the founding fathers would be?

Or would you be offended as a christian?

lew · 09-22-2006, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

My bad. It wasn't made the official motto until the Cold War. I was WAY off!

Actually, I would say that having that as our nation motto is even worse than having it on our currency.

But that's all irrelevant. The question holds just as much weight regardless of when the phrase was put on our money.

The Founding Fathers were hardly adherents of the Ten Commandments. They might have had core Christian beliefs, but most of them were deists, and most didn't believe in eternal punishment for those that do not believe in God. You do remember why people left Europe, right?

In fact, I want you to find me a quote from one of the leading (use your best judgement regarding this conditional) Founding Fathers that shows that he was an adherent of the Ten Commandments. Even if you do, I'm sure I could find more that did not adhere to the Commandments.

Shortly after the Declaration of Independence was signed, a committe was appointed to draft a seal for the United States.

Thomas Jefferson proposed: "The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night."

Benjamin Franklin said: "Moses lifting up his wand, and dividing the red sea, and pharaoh in his chariot overwhelmed with the waters. This motto: "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.""

They seemed to like the Exodus story, I'm sure they liked the 10 commandments. And these were the two deists. I wonder how much the Christians liked it.

John Adams wrote: "The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite...And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United..."

John Adams then wrote a little while later: "The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion..."

So here John Adams is stating that the foundation on which our independence was layed was Christianity. And what is Christianity to John Adams? It's the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount.

And I won't even go into what some of the "most Christian" Founding Fathers said, such as Patrick Henry, Samuel Adams, Benjamin Rush, etc, about our country.

It can be argued back and forth whether this nation was "founded" upon Christianity (as Patrick Henry declared). But it can't be argued that it, at the least, had some sort of impact upon the Founding Fathers. However, it can be proven that satanism had absolutely zero effect.

So again, if historical evidence pointed towards the fact that the Founding Fathers believed in satanism, I would have no problem with satanistic symbols over Washington. But they didn't. They had differing beliefs of Christianity, Deism, Unitarianism, and Masonry - all of which appear in Washington.

lew · 09-22-2006, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

So you would be offended because the founding fathers would be?

Or would you be offended as a christian?

I would be offended because it's not historical. It has nothing to do with my own personal beliefs.

If I lived in the Middle East somewhere, and saw either symbols of Judaism or Islam, I wouldn't bitch about it and try to change the government. I would understand that those countries had a religious background.

Scrum · 09-22-2006, 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by lew

I would be offended because it's not historical. It has nothing to do with my own personal beliefs.

So when we build new courthouses and government buildings it would be ok for us to put satanic symbols on them since they aren't historic?

What about the new dollar bills? Lets say we have the next batch come out with secular sayings on them. They are new afterall and i'm sure they will spend just as well.

lew · 09-22-2006, 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

So when we build new courthouses and government buildings it would be ok for us to put satanic symbols on them since they aren't historic?

What about the new dollar bills? Lets say we have the next batch come out with secular sayings on them. They are new afterall and i'm sure they will spend just as well.

Huh? I just said I wouldn't want them there because it's not historical.

Dumpy Dooby · 09-22-2006, 01:17 AM

Originally Posted by lew

Shortly after the Declaration of Independence was signed, a committe was appointed to draft a seal for the United States.

Thomas Jefferson proposed: "The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night."

Benjamin Franklin said: "Moses lifting up his wand, and dividing the red sea, and pharaoh in his chariot overwhelmed with the waters. This motto: "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.""

They seemed to like the Exodus story, I'm sure they liked the 10 commandments. And these were the two deists. I wonder how much the Christians liked it.

John Adams wrote: "The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite...And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United..."

John Adams then wrote a little while later: "The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion..."

So here John Adams is stating that the foundation on which our independence was layed was Christianity. And what is Christianity to John Adams? It's the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount.

And I won't even go into what some of the "most Christian" Founding Fathers said, such as Patrick Henry, Samuel Adams, Benjamin Rush, etc, about our country.

It can be argued back and forth whether this nation was "founded" upon Christianity (as Patrick Henry declared). But it can't be argued that it, at the least, had some sort of impact upon the Founding Fathers. However, it can be proven that satanism had absolutely zero effect.

So again, if historical evidence pointed towards the fact that the Founding Fathers believed in satanism, I would have no problem with satanistic symbols over Washington. But they didn't. They had differing beliefs of Christianity, Deism, Unitarianism, and Masonry - all of which appear in Washington.

Looks like all you got John Adams.

Oh fiddlesticks.

Dumpy Dooby · 09-22-2006, 01:22 AM

Originally Posted by lew

Huh? I just said I wouldn't want them there because it's not historical.

If that's your only reasoning, then surely you agree that the Ten Commandments should be removed from the courts because not everyone in the country is Christian, right? Surely you agree that "In God We Trust" sort of sends an unwelcoming message to atheistic citizens, right? Afterall, "WE" don't trust in God ... only theists do. Are your views along the same line as Bush Sr., the guy that said that atheism and American patriotism are incompatible?

lew · 09-22-2006, 01:26 AM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

Looks like all you got John Adams.

Oh fiddlesticks.

Nice way to ignore my post. You asked for one Founding Father. I posted one of the more important ones. But hey, ignore all you want.

lew · 09-22-2006, 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

If that's your only reasoning, then surely you agree that the Ten Commandments should be removed from the courts because not everyone in the country is Christian, right? Surely you agree that "In God We Trust" sort of sends an unwelcoming message to atheistic citizens, right? Afterall, "WE" don't trust in God ... only theists do. Are your views along the same line as Bush Sr., the guy that said that atheism and American patriotism are incompatible?

Am I not being clear or something? I don't care if 100% of the country were atheists. There can still be biblical symbols posted on government property because it's historical.

And no, I don't agree with Bush. Some (a minority nontheless) of the most patriotic Americans were non-Christians.

Scrum · 09-22-2006, 02:30 AM

Originally Posted by lew

Huh? I just said I wouldn't want them there because it's not historical.

How can a brand new building be historical? Can't the designer put anything on it he wants?

IminWonderland · 09-22-2006, 02:37 AM

Well, I think some modern day christians, versus the founding fathers, have different interpretations of what it means to be Christian.

I believe they look at the Excodus and they look at the Gospels, and what they see is allegory that can be used to represent a nation. I mean, the Excodus of Isreal is used all through out Literature, as well, as many other stories in the Bible. I believe, from the material that I've read of many of the Founders (and when I say read, I mean I read it as Literature...)that when they refer back bibically, they do it to support their point.

This in contrast to some Christian of today, take it as literal, and instead of using the stories as allegory, they use it by means to support evangelism and sometimes as a way to push their views on everyone else.

I think like, if you read Shakespeare, or Milton, or 16th and 17th Century writers, they use the Bible, Greek and Roman Mythology, and other sources as a way to back up the points they make in their writings. But, it did not essentially mean that they took those stories literally, or even religiously, and I believe the same to be true in many of the writings that the Founders wrote. Even in our own Declaration, Constitution, and other documents, references to God are not meant to express their religious beliefs, but used in a way to give meaning to their message in a way that the public could understand it...

Does that make sense?

Dumpy Dooby · 09-22-2006, 03:09 AM

Originally Posted by lew

Am I not being clear or something? I don't care if 100% of the country were atheists. There can still be biblical symbols posted on government property because it's historical.

Atheism is also historical in this country.

Basically, what you're saying is, "I don't give a shit if people don't want to spend their money on spreading the 'word of God' ... just as long as it's MY God because I only recognize that MY God has existed in this country since it was founded." That's what you're saying, right?

Also, here's another quote for you...
"This nation of ours was not founded on Christian principles." --John Adams

The above is actually just a paraphrase (though the paraphrase is more popular) of the original quote:

"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries....

"The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."
-- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams

And just for good measure...
"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world."
--John Adams (from Ira D Cardiff's "What Great Men Think of Religion")

"Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it."
--John Adams (letter to his son, John Quincy Adams, November 13, 1816)

Kytro · 09-22-2006, 08:22 AM

How about looking at what is actually a good idea instead of "the founding fathers...."

ballz2wallz · 09-22-2006, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

Nowadays, Christians take it a step even further with wanting to put the 10 Commandments in our court rooms and crosses at memorial sites.

What do you mean by this? They were in there already and were taken out a long time ago. This isn't something new.

lew · 09-22-2006, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

How can a brand new building be historical? Can't the designer put anything on it he wants?

You're not understanding me. I'm saying that Christianity has a long history with America. So it is fine to put on national buildings (old and new). Likewise with Deism and Masonry. However, atheism does not have a long history with America. Therefore atheism is not historical, and neither is Islam, Hindu, or any other religion.