Russia invades Georgia with tank convey

[Donkey®]

Yet when Israel does the same shit we clap our hands and cheer.



U.S. official: Russia's attack on Georgia is 'disproportionate' - CNN.com

Originally Posted by article

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Russia's use of strategic bombers and ballistic missiles against Georgia's civilians outside of the South Ossetian conflict is "far disproportionate" to Georgia's alleged attack on Russian peacekeepers, a senior U.S. official said Saturday.

The official was not authorized to speak on the record due to the sensitive nature of the diplomacy.

Russia's use of its potent air weaponry signals a "severe" and "dangerous escalation in the crisis," the official said.

"For the life of me, I can't image that being a proportionate response to the charge that Georgia has attacked Russian peacekeepers," the official said. "It's hard for us to understand what Russia's plan is here."

The official said Russia is probably trying to destabilize Georgia politically to kill its chances of joining NATO.

Georgia wants to join NATO, but Russia opposes the move, concerned that the alliance's eastward march will erode its influence. NATO rejected Georgia's membership bid in April despite strong lobbying from U.S. President Bush, though the alliance promised that Georgia could join at a later date. Video Watch President Bush comment on conflict »

Still, Georgia bears some of the blame for the fighting over South Ossetia, the official said. Recently, the United States has had "very blunt exchanges with" Georgia, telling its leaders that they have no chance of winning a war with Russia and that they should stick to a path of diplomacy. Video Watch injured Georgian soldier being treated »

The official said European allies have told the United States that Russia has "crossed a line of unacceptable behavior" and should "expect international condemnation."

"I do sense an emerging unified view among our key allies," he said.

The United Sates, Britain and NATO on Friday called for a cease-fire. And on Saturday, French President Nicolas Sarkozy proposed an immediate cease-fire as part of a three-step plan to end fighting.

Sarkozy's proposal calls for the return of Russian and Georgian troops to their former positions and requires Georgia's sovereignty and territorial integrity be respected. A statement from Sarkozy's office did not provide further details on the plan.

The official also said the State Department has authorized only the voluntary departure of dependents of U.S. embassy employees from the Georgian capital of Tbilisi. The official said he did not know how many dependents would choose to leave.

Meanwhile, the U.N. Security Council held a private meeting on Georgia on Saturday, though it seemed unlikely that there would be any immediate agreement on a statement on the conflict.

The U.S., European Union and international security organizations on Friday called for an end to the fighting

Bush and Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin on Friday discussed the conflict in Beijing, where they attended the opening of the Summer Olympics.

The EU and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe were sending envoys to Georgia to secure a cease-fire, but a senior U.S. State Department official said the United States would send only a representative after a cease-fire is in place.

The European Union said it was working with other parties "towards a ceasefire in order to prevent further escalation of this conflict." EU spokeswoman Christina Gallach told CNN: "We think it is not acceptable to see these scenes of bloodshed and destruction."
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[Stylerod]

You are exactly right. Russia is a tiny country defending its citizens from daily missile and suicide bomber attacks on its population by groups supplied by surrounding countries that are much larger than itself. Some of those countries have even vowed to wipe Russia off the map.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

You are exactly right. Russia is a tiny country defending its citizens from daily missile and suicide bomber attacks on its population by groups supplied by surrounding countries that are much larger than itself. Some of those countries have even vowed to wipe Russia off the map.

Putting aside this is one of the worst posts I have ever seen...what you're trying to say is because Russia is big...Israel is small...they can take more bullshit and not respond? Interesting take. So do you think our response to 9/11 was disproportionate?

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Putting aside this is one of the worst posts I have ever seen...what you're trying to say is because Russia is big...Israel is small...they can take more bullshit and not respond? Interesting take. So do you think our response to 9/11 was disproportionate?

Well, in your article it says there was an "alleged attack on Russian peacekeepers".

And the response was tanks, planes, ballistic missiles (!) and trying to blow up their oil pipeline. Yeah, that is pretty drastic.

Israel is protecting their very existence from neighbors that would like to see the whole country blown up.

[Dispatcher]

You really think Putin gives a rat's ass about "international condemnation"?

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Well, in your article it says there was an "alleged attack on Russian peacekeepers".

And the response was tanks, planes, ballistic missiles (!) and trying to blow up their oil pipeline. Yeah, that is pretty drastic.

Israel is protecting their very existence from neighbors that would like to see the whole country blown up.

The last large Israeli attacks were because two soldiers were kidnapped from an outpost attack. Sounds no different than peacekeepers being attacked. They went in with tanks and helicopters and planes against people who are using RPGs and AK-47s. There was no danger of being "wiped off the map" as you contend.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

The last large Israeli attacks were because two soldiers were kidnapped from an outpost attack. Sounds no different than peacekeepers being attacked. They went in with tanks and helicopters and planes against people who are using RPGs and AK-47s. There was no danger of being "wiped off the map" as you contend.

Wait, wait, wait. You must have forgotten about the whole 50 years of attacks that predated that event!

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Wait, wait, wait. You must have forgotten about the whole 50 years of attacks that predated that event!

What does that have to do with anything? It most certainly has nothing to do with the "wipe off the map" comments you keep spouting...which are completely irrelevant as well. I'll just let your answers speak for themselves.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

What does that have to do with anything? It most certainly has nothing to do with the "wipe off the map" comments you keep spouting...which are completely irrelevant as well. I'll just let your answers speak for themselves.

Cool. I wouldn't expect anything else.

[DosEquis]

since when were people supposed to fight fairly? Shock and awe?

[Joe Castro]

Why are people blaming Russia. Georgia has kept a people under their control who are not Georgian, who have continually expressed a wish to be free from Georgia (95% of the population voted for this). Georgia attacked this region. The region contains many Russians, so Russia has defended them. Russia are a liberation force.

As for Russia finding it tough, come on - it's hardly Iraq. Russia has been fighting for a couple of days without victory. They are showing restraint, they could flatten the Georgians in hours if they so wished, but they are looking to minimalise civillian losses, not just destroy the place.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

It is obvious to anyone, who isn't blind to all but Russian propaganda, that the Russians aren't a "liberation force".

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Why are people blaming Russia. Georgia has kept a people under their control who are not Georgian, who have continually expressed a wish to be free from Georgia (95% of the population voted for this). Georgia attacked this region. The region contains many Russians, so Russia has defended them. Russia are a liberation force.

As for Russia finding it tough, come on - it's hardly Iraq. Russia has been fighting for a couple of days without victory. They are showing restraint, they could flatten the Georgians in hours if they so wished, but they are looking to minimalise civillian losses, not just destroy the place.

So the whole "Georgia being admitted to NATO" thing is just a coincidence, eh?

When America does something like this in Cuba or Iran or a dozen other countries (financially backing a rebellion), you are the first one criticizing, and I'm there with you. But heaven forbid a communist country do the same thing. Then you show up defending them.

If this is REALLY just about the independence of South Ossetia, then fine. They have no interest in being part of Georgia... although I have to admit, the ethnic cleansing isn't a good thing. Regardless, we'll see what happens. It just seems fishy. The timing and all wreaks of premeditation. Additionally, if Georgia is telling the truth in that Russia stuck first and struck Georgian civilians, then that's not good at all.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Russia has continued air raids deep inside Georgia, after it rejected Tbilisi's announcement that it had called a ceasefire and wanted talks.

Jets bombed targets near Tbilisi, including the airport, and a Georgian boat was later sunk, reports said.

Earlier Georgia said its troops had pulled out of the breakaway region of South Ossetia and Russia was in control of its capital, Tskhinvali.

Thousands of civilians have fled - it is not clear how many have been killed.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili told the BBC his forces had observed a ceasefire since 0500 on Sunday morning, but had still been bombed by Russian planes. He said his government had been trying "all day" to contact Russia to discuss a ceasefire.

BBC NEWS | Europe | Georgia move fails to halt raids

[kinggovernor]

Of course the attack was disproportionate, the Russians would be stupid to attack with an even force

[C4Casey]

Russia obviously premeditated this invasion. It takes alot of time to build up the kind of force that they invaded with. The SAME DAY that Georgians took control of the Ossetian capital, thousands of Russian troops and soldiers poured into the region. That means they were ALREADY MASSED ALONG THE BORDER BEFORE HOSTILITIES BROKE OUT BETWEEN OSSETIA AND GEORGIA! They were just waiting for an excuse to invade, and the Georgians gave it to them.

And BTW, if this was simply a peace-keeping mission by Russia to throw out Georgian forces from Ossetia, then why have they not agreed to a ceasefire, even though Georgia has agreed to the conditions that the Russians stipulated in order for a ceasefire to occur? And if this is purely a peace-keeping mission, then why has the Russian navy blockaded the Georgian coast, and why are there reports of Russian armor beginning to move into Georgia itself?

And Castro, you're right. The Georgian Army isn't the Iraqi Army. The Georgian army is much better equiped, trained, and motivated than the Iraqi Army ever was. I think the members of the Georgian Armed Forces would be quite insulted if they were to be compared to the Iraqis.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

Of course the attack was disproportionate, the Russians would be stupid to attack with an even force

Of course, if you are going to go to war, bring everything.

But I think people see this being disproportionate in the same was as if my neighbor pushed my wife and I went to his house and killed him, his wife and his kids. The response was disproportionate to the offending act.

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

So the whole "Georgia being admitted to NATO" thing is just a coincidence, eh?

The application to NATO has no doubt pissed off Russia. I wont deny that. However, their actions in Ossetia and of Abkhazia had the same effect a long time ago.

We can speculate about NATO all day long, but the fact remains that Georgia attavked first. Russian peace keepers and people with Russian passports were killed. It does not take a genuis to work out Russia ain't gonna sit back and take that. The Georgians made the mother of all miscalculations with their provocation. Their buddies in the west ain't gonna help them against Russia. We only want them to help us.

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

When America does something like this in Cuba or Iran or a dozen other countries (financially backing a rebellion), you are the first one criticizing, and I'm there with you. But heaven forbid a communist country do the same thing. Then you show up defending them.

First off, there are no communist countries involved. Secondly, when has America ever done anything like this in Cuba or Iran, never. What America does is what Georgia has done - launch an attack against an innocent and largely helpless people. Russia has come out in defence of such people.

It is another masterstroke of foreign policy from Russia. Time and time again they come out in defense of the little guy and the oppressed, instead of conquering peoples countries (if they wanted to do that they would have by now)

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

If this is REALLY just about the independence of South Ossetia, then fine. They have no interest in being part of Georgia... although I have to admit, the ethnic cleansing isn't a good thing. Regardless, we'll see what happens. It just seems fishy. The timing and all wreaks of premeditation. Additionally, if Georgia is telling the truth in that Russia stuck first and struck Georgian civilians, then that's not good at all.

Surely, no one is taking any such notion of Russia striking first seriously. I haven't come across anyone who takes that view, not even watching the British media. I sat watching TV as the newsflash came on that Georgia had invaded South Ossetia. It was after that the Russians made their inevitable move.

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by C4Casey

Russia obviously premeditated this invasion. It takes alot of time to build up the kind of force that they invaded with. The SAME DAY that Georgians took control of the Ossetian capital, thousands of Russian troops and soldiers poured into the region. That means they were ALREADY MASSED ALONG THE BORDER BEFORE HOSTILITIES BROKE OUT BETWEEN OSSETIA AND GEORGIA! They were just waiting for an excuse to invade, and the Georgians gave it to them.

It just means they have bases nearby, hardly a surprise. I would be surprised if Russia wasn't able to muster up 10,000 men in a day.

Originally Posted by C4Casey

And BTW, if this was simply a peace-keeping mission by Russia to throw out Georgian forces from Ossetia, then wh