Russia invades Georgia with tank convey

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by motivez

I think it's extremely pathetic that we aren't stepping up more for Georgia after they've been one of our strongest supporters in sending troops to and helping us in Iraq.

Why, what could be done ?

Originally Posted by motivez

Russia is now being accused of ethnic cleansing as well, and it wouldn't surprise me at all considering the type of monster that Putin is. He should be out of power, he's done nothing but roll back freedoms and make Russia a more totalitarian society.

Erm, i think you will find that Georgia was accused of ethnic cleansing long before Russia. Maybe they don't report that in the freest media on the earth.

And Putin's done nothing ? Is trebling GDP nothing ? Is increasing social security nothing ? Or how about making Russia a powerful country with a voice that must be heard ? He has done many good things. He wasn't the most popular president on the planet for nothing.

Obviously this isn't a peace keeping mission, Russia wants control over the oil pipelines, and is angry over their potential admission to NATO, and pro-western stances..

Originally Posted by motivez

If it was peacekeeping, Russia wouldn't be targeting civilians, wouldn't be targeting the international economic infrastructure that's in place (ports, etc), nor would it be expanding its raid into other areas of Georgia, it would be limiting them to the area they were trying to play peacekeeper in.

Russia is not "targeting" civilians. As i so often hear from people in the US it is collateral damage. It is just a shame the Georgian leadership has put its people in the firing line with its suicidal policies.

Also Russia is not peacekeeping now. It was before Georgia launched its attack, now it is at war in attempt to restore the dignity of the occupied people.

I also think you are quite aware that "International Economic Infrastructure" can also be used for military purposes.

Originally Posted by motivez

If it was peacekeeping, they would have accepted a unilateral ceasefire, as Georgia has withdrawn all its troops. However, Russia continues to expand their attacks.

Well Georgia have already broken one ceasefire.

I think this article will be helpful.

[C4Casey]

I think it's extremely pathetic that we aren't stepping up more for Georgia after they've been one of our strongest supporters in sending troops to and helping us in Iraq.

Completely agree. They blead by our side but we won't go and blead by their's. This is a perfect example of how we abandon our allies. We should at least be sending them weapons. I would even go as far to say that we should have troops there, although I know that's not politically possible. However, don't be suprised if nations like Turkey, the Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia begin to take an active role in this war. All of these countries have used fairly strong retoric in condemning Russia, and they also probably feel that if this could happen to Georgia, it could happen to them. If the war in Georgia begins to draw in other parties to the conflict, I'd say these nations would be the most likely to intervene on Georgia's behalf.

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by C4Casey

I think it's extremely pathetic that we aren't stepping up more for Georgia after they've been one of our strongest supporters in sending troops to and helping us in Iraq.

Completely agree. They blead by our side but we won't go and blead by their's. This is a perfect example of how we abandon our allies. We should at least be sending them weapons. I would even go as far to say that we should have troops there, although I know that's not politically possible. However, don't be suprised if nations like Turkey, the Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia begin to take an active role in this war. All of these countries have used fairly strong retoric in condemning Russia, and they also probably feel that if this could happen to Georgia, it could happen to them. If the war in Georgia begins to draw in other parties to the conflict, I'd say these nations would be the most likely to intervene on Georgia's behalf.

You do appreciate that sending US troops could lead to armageddon right ? It's not just politically impossible, it is militarilly impossible.

And what could Russia do to these other countries ? Defend themselves and their citizens from aggression. That is all they have done. Why should Russia sit back and allow Georgia to kill Russians ? If any of them declare war on Russia there can only be one outcome - they get crushed.

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

First off, there are no communist countries involved. Secondly, when has America ever done anything like this in Cuba or Iran, never. What America does is what Georgia has done - launch an attack against an innocent and largely helpless people. Russia has come out in defence of such people.

It is another masterstroke of foreign policy from Russia. Time and time again they come out in defense of the little guy and the oppressed, instead of conquering peoples countries (if they wanted to do that they would have by now)

I thought you were well aware of America's past involvement in foreign affairs. We OFTEN fund rebellions to get discourse started. Panama, Yugoslavia, Cuba, Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq... there are plenty more. But it starts with monetary support of rebellion, then sometimes goes into military support. We've never moved in militarily on Cuba (rebellions are never successful down there) and didn't need to in Yugoslavia. In Iraq we promised to move in but didn't (well, until a few years ago). Panama had troop involvement.

These are the reasons they use to sell weapons too, which is bullshit.

Understand, I'm 100% against it. I'm against it when America does it, and I'm against it when Russia does it. Russia has been funding rebellion groups in South Ossetia for more than a decade now. I'd be a hypocrite if I said any activity like that was ok when I'm critical of it in even the most supposed "successful" occasions. And YOU being critical of it in one instance, but being ok with it in another IS hypocritical.

[Smull]

Russia is sticking up for the little guys? Please.

If Russia was really just defending some people who wanted to be free why didn't they defend these people?

Those bodies in the ditch belong to Chechens, a people who declared independence from Russia, and Russia didn't exactly jump to defend these little guys like they did the Odesians.
Mass graves in Chechnya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Second Chechen War crimes and terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Russia is in this thing for Russia, not to defend the little guys.

That said, I don't think we should be backing Georgia, they fucked up. They pissed off they're big angry and aggressive next door neighbor, and had absolutely no reason to think that we would help them (at least militarily) in a war against Russia. Diplomatic pressure and aid to help them rebuild is all fine and well, but we cannot be expected to go to war with Russia to defend Georgia.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

LiveLeak.com - Redefining the Media

Yet another video:

LiveLeak

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

I thought you were well aware of America's past involvement in foreign affairs. We OFTEN fund rebellions to get discourse started. Panama, Yugoslavia, Cuba, Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq... there are plenty more. But it starts with monetary support of rebellion, then sometimes goes into military support. We've never moved in militarily on Cuba (rebellions are never successful down there) and didn't need to in Yugoslavia. In Iraq we promised to move in but didn't (well, until a few years ago). Panama had troop involvement.

These are the reasons they use to sell weapons too, which is bullshit.

Understand, I'm 100% against it. I'm against it when America does it, and I'm against it when Russia does it. Russia has been funding rebellion groups in South Ossetia for more than a decade now. I'd be a hypocrite if I said any activity like that was ok when I'm critical of it in even the most supposed "successful" occasions. And YOU being critical of it in one instance, but being ok with it in another IS hypocritical.

There is no hypocrisy, because i do not follow fundamental rules like no intervention. I take things on a case by case basis. If you look at all the cases mentioned it is easy to see they are completely different.

We'll take Cuba as an example. The Cuban government ruled over Cuba. The US looked to overthrow the government of Cuba and install a friendly regime. There were no breakaway regions who viewed themselves as anything other than Cuban.

In this case however, South Ossetia is being dominated by Georgia. Georgia has claimed it as its own, contrary to the wishes of almost all the South Ossetian people. It is looking to control what is essentially a foreign people. This never happened in Cuba, iran, Grenada, Panama, Guatemala, Chile or any of the other places the US intervened.

The only hypocrisy i see is people claiming to be anti imperialist on one hand but supporting the domination of the South Ossetians on the other.

[WickedLou9]

Just like our Shock and Awe campaign at the outset of the Iraq war. Overwhelming and disproportionate use of force.
If it's good for the Goose.

[kinggovernor]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Of course, if you are going to go to war, bring everything.

But I think people see this being disproportionate in the same was as if my neighbor pushed my wife and I went to his house and killed him, his wife and his kids. The response was disproportionate to the offending act.

they attacked areas outside of the areas where the enemy initially attacked, I would hope we would respond the same way.

[kinggovernor]

its interesting that when other countries attack with overwhelming force, the right wing is against it and the left wing is more understanding

but when our country attacks with overwhelming force, the left wing is against it and the right wing is more understanding

generally speaking of course

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

its interesting that when other countries attack with overwhelming force, the right wing is against it and the left wing is more understanding

but when our country attacks with overwhelming force, the left wing is against it and the right wing is more understanding

generally speaking of course

I'm not really supporting what Russia is doing, I honestly am frightened by thier ongoing militarization and return to cold war policies. At the same time I can recognize the irony when we comdemn other countries not for going to war at all, but rather because they chose to do so in a disproportionate way ( as we did in Iraq). That implies that had they just been less destructive that it would have been OK with us. Disproportionate has nothing to do with it IMO. We should be comdembing them for doing what they did no matter the level of force.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

I have liberal leanings and I support Georgia. Russia doesn't want peace, it wants to overthrow the pro-western, democratically elected Georgian government, that also has NATO aspirations, is US-backed, and a contributor of troops to Iraq. Georgian pleas for ceasefire were answered by Russian bombers hitting targets near the capital. Russia wont talk about peace until they get what they wanted from the get-go, Saakashvili gone. They've been manipulating these separatist movements for a long time now. Georgia also has the only non-Russian Capsian Sea Oil pipeline that goes to the west.

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

The only hypocrisy i see is people claiming to be anti imperialist on one hand but supporting the domination of the South Ossetians on the other.

I certainly don't support it. And if Russia is only meaning to help them financially to fight for their own freedom, that's one thing. Today Russia rolled into Georgia proper. They're taking the fight TO Georgia, not just fighting for the South Ossetians.

Again, we'll see in the outcome. I'm ok with fighting for freedom, lord knows we'll probably have to do it sometime again.

btw, we supported rebellions who meant to take back their countries. Just because South Ossetia wants to separate from Georgia doesn't make it that different. In Yugoslavia, all America did was send money to Milosevic's competition and helped them ensure a fair election. When Milosevic lost, ignored the results, and was the ousted by the civilians, it was all done without American military involvement. They gained their freedom with American financial backing.

PERSONALLY I don't think we should have gotten involved, but it's a case in which most people claim victory.

[motivez]

Looks like Russia has taken control of Gori, effectively splitting Georgia into two..

Again, this is about the oil and control over the supply routes, not defending any sect of people it saw as being persecuted. Their motivation is not noble, it's about power and control that it has seen slip away as former Soviet Republicans decide to side with the west.

[motivez]

I agree with McCain on this issue, surprisingly:

Originally Posted by John McCain

“Russia’s aggression against Georgia is both a matter of urgent moral and strategic importance to the United States,” said Mr McCain. “The implications go beyond their threat to . . . a democratic Georgia. Russia is using violence against Georgia, in part, to intimidate other neighbours such as Ukraine, for choosing to associate with the west.”

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Why, what could be done ?

We could demand UN and NATO peacekeepers be on the ground in Georgia to prevent Russia from carrying out its own ethnic cleansing campaign.. There's a whole host of things we could do besides this soft rejection of Russia's actions that have come from Bush.

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Erm, i think you will find that Georgia was accused of ethnic cleansing long before Russia. Maybe they don't report that in the freest media on the earth.

Uh, they reported it. I'm talking about Russia in my post though. It's no better if they're doing it.

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

And Putin's done nothing ? Is trebling GDP nothing ? Is increasing social security nothing ? Or how about making Russia a powerful country with a voice that must be heard ? He has done many good things. He wasn't the most popular president on the planet for nothing.

I hope you're not serious. In the words of Gary Kasparov:

Maher: But when you look at what’s going on in Russia, Putin has a very high approval rating. I mean there is something in the …

Kasparov: How do you know? (laughter) I mean are you sure? Are you relying on the polling results of the police state? I think that with the same type of media and pervasive security force, I believe Bush and Cheney could enjoy the same approval rating here. (applause)

Maher: Checkmate to me.

As Maher said, checkmate to you too. You can't rely on polling in a police state to get any indication of how popular someone is, because there will be far too many who are afraid to speak their mind for fear of retaliation.

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Obviously this isn't a peace keeping mission, Russia wants control over the oil pipelines, and is angry over their potential admission to NATO, and pro-western stances..

Exactly why we should be stepping up and doing more for them, they've backed us at great risk, not only in Iraq, but on the world stage. Their allegiance is an important strategically, and we can't let an authoritarian regime like Russia simply invade it and control it.. because Ukraine will be next.. and then who knows who else.

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Russia is not "targeting" civilians. As i so often hear from people in the US it is collateral damage. It is just a shame the Georgian leadership has put its people in the firing line with its suicidal policies.

The media disagrees, they've been accused of running their own ethnic cleansing campaign.

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Also Russia is not peacekeeping now. It was before Georgia launched its attack, now it is at war in attempt to restore the dignity of the occupied people.

Occupied people? If those people are Russian citizens, let them leave to go to Russia.. No country is going to willingly give up its own territory.

And lets not forget, Russia has funded these people similar to the way we funded groups in various countries throughout the last 60 years when we don't like the current regime.

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

I also think you are quite aware that "International Economic Infrastructure" can also be used for military purposes.

Sure, but it goes to show that they're interested in control over the entire Georgia proper, not simply this rebel territory and any citizens and militants it pays to be there.

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

I think this article will be helpful.

I don't see an article?

[6SpeedTA95]

People that don't understand what russia is doing or defending their actions need to wake up and smell the coffee. Russia and China are simultaneously buying up world energy resources and preparing to drill in areas US politicians have deemed off limits. They're buying things up in scary quantities and forcing companies that were doing business in their countries out of their countries or to take much smaller portions of the oil and gas proceeds.

This was nothing more than an attempt to claim the oil pipeline running through Georgia. The pipeline is nowhere near the area where initial conflict erupted yet Russia took it as an opportunity to bomb the pipeline, a pipeline that they have tried to sabatoge numerous times in the past. Russia realize the new nuclear bomb is energy. Their goal with China is to control the energy resources of the eastern world and all of Europe. We will see more cold war tactics from Russia and a much stronger stance from China in the years to come as they ramp up military power and clamp down on countries under their "energy" control. It's quite scary and things happening in the industry right now are frightening, in the meantime, US politicians bicker and fight in an attempt to get re-elected this fall, while seemingly being damn near completely clueless on what's happening in the world around us. Thank God for Canada and Australia, they may save western civilization in the next 30 years.