Russia invades Georgia with tank convey

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by C4Casey

Smart move sitting on our asses?

No. While we can't risk an outright confrontation with Russia, yet, there are other nations that just might. The Ukraine is furious over Russia's actions, and they see what Russia is doing to Georgia and think that they could be next. They have already barred the Black Sea Fleet from returning to port in the Ukraine, and they are also one of the main suppliers of weapons to Georgia. This makes the Ukraine a possible canidate to send troops to the region.

Another two countries who are in support of Georgia are Turkey and Azerbaijan. Turkey is another one of Georgia's main arms suppliers, and they are also currently providing Georgia with electricity. The Azerbaijan government has come out against Russia and has approved of Georgian operations in South Ossetia. The reason that these two nations are pissed at Russia is that they believe Russia is trying to gain control of the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline. Since this pipeline runs through Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Turkey, they would be really pissed if Russia tried to muscle in on their oil profits. If Russia moves to take the pipeline, look for these to countries to intervene.

Hopefully, none of the above scenarios plays out, 'cause if another nation starts to fight Russia it could very well signal the start of WWIII.

All these nations despise russia's actions and not a SINGLE one of them has taken any action signaling, we're all afraid of mother russia. Do what you please with those around you, which is exactly what they're doing and Ukraine will be next, with huge oil and gas reserves you can bet that Russia wants a piece of that action. More important than their known and potential reserves is the infrastructure for transportation that exists in Ukraine. They could very well be next, this is not good.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

All these nations despise russia's actions and not a SINGLE one of them has taken any action signaling, we're all afraid of mother russia.

Also nothing will happen via the UN either, because Russia has veto power. Once again they prove how worthless they are to world peace.

[motivez]

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has ordered an end to military operations against Georgia, the Kremlin says.

He told officials he had taken the decision to end the operation after restoring security for civilians and peacekeepers in South Ossetia.

However, Russia has been highly critical of Georgia's leadership, and there were no signs of imminent talks.

Before the announcement, there were fresh reports of Russian warplanes bombing the Georgian town of Gori.

Witnesses told the BBC that several people were killed when a bomb hit a hospital in the town, which is 10 miles (15km) from the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.

A reporter for Reuters news agency said several bombs exploded in front of his vehicle, while a photographer for the agency spoke of seeing dead and injured people lying in the streets.

And in Georgia's other breakaway region, Abkhazia, separatist rebels continued an offensive against Georgian troops in the Kodori Gorge region - the only area of Abkhazia still under Georgian military control.

'Safety restored'

News of Mr Medvedev's decision emerged as French President Nicolas Sarkozy arrived in Moscow expecting to press Russia on the need for a ceasefire.

According to a statement, Mr Medvedev told his defence minister and chief of staff that "the goal has been attained".

"I've decided to finish the operation to force the Georgian authorities to peace. The safety of our peacekeeping forces and civilian population has been restored.

"The aggressor has been punished, having sustained considerable losses. Its armed forces have been disorganised," he added.

The BBC's James Rodgers, in Moscow, said there is no sign yet that Russia is willing to engage in talks with the government in Tbilisi.

Russia's Foreign Minister, Sergei Lavrov, has insisted that Georgia must sign a legally binding document on the non-use of force.

And Mr Medvedev warned that Russia would not tolerate any further Georgian military activity in South Ossetia, saying: "Should centres of resistance or other aggressive attempts arise, you must take the decision to destroy them."

The BBC's Gabriel Gatehouse, near Gori, reported seeing sporadic artillery fire around the town right up until shortly before the Russian announcement.

Our correspondent said there was no sign of Russian troops south of Gori, but said there were a number of Georgian military vehicles abandoned or burnt on the road outside the town.

BBC NEWS | Europe | Russia 'ends Georgia operation'

Here's a good image from the BBC site:



It really looked like they were going to expand operations and try to split up Georgia and take out the leadership, I'm glad the international pressure has worked to stop them.

[Joe Castro]

They haven't been stopped. Russia will deal out justice still. President Medvedev has rightly called on the international community to put the Georgian leadership on trial in the hague for launching an aggresive war and committing genocide, as i suggested he would. If this does not happen (and it wont since the US and UK have been doing the same crimes) Russia could and should take action themselves.

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by motivez

We could demand UN and NATO peacekeepers be on the ground in Georgia to prevent Russia from carrying out its own ethnic cleansing campaign.. There's a whole host of things we could do besides this soft rejection of Russia's actions that have come from Bush.

But you are in no position to "demand" anything of Russia. Russia will not deal with those who make demands of them. What should be done is, we should thank Russia for defending an oppressed people and urge them to take out the war criminals. We should not be defending those who go against the Nuremburg principles, including our own leaderships.

Originally Posted by motivez

Uh, they reported it. I'm talking about Russia in my post though. It's no better if they're doing it.

But Russia is not doing it. It is Georgia who launched an aggresive war. It is the Russian citizens who have fled. They have fled into Russia. This makes it quite obvious it is not Russia responsible.

Originally Posted by motivez

I hope you're not serious. In the words of Gary Kasparov:



As Maher said, checkmate to you too. You can't rely on polling in a police state to get any indication of how popular someone is, because there will be far too many who are afraid to speak their mind for fear of retaliation.

I'm deadly serious.Kasparov is a nut on the fringe of society. He represents less than 1% of Russian society. We need not only take polls, we can look at election results, elections which were the fairest ever held in Russia, far fairer than any the stooge Yeltsin ever held. We can look at the sheer numbers who turn out in support when Putin or Medvedev speak in public. Another factor is the decline in the size and activity of the communist party. Although they are still the only major opposition party in Russia, they are not half as big as they were when Yeltsin was there.

Originally Posted by motivez

Exactly why we should be stepping up and doing more for them, they've backed us at great risk, not only in Iraq, but on the world stage. Their allegiance is an important strategically, and we can't let an authoritarian regime like Russia simply invade it and control it.. because Ukraine will be next.. and then who knows who else.

I am sorry, i made a mistake with my quote brackets and so what you have responded to here are your own words, not mine.

What i will say is they should not be backeed. Russia has defended an oppressed people, Georgia does the oppressing. I find it as no surprise that Americans and some Brits are so keen to defend war criminals and perpetrators of genocide as that is what we do. I am also not surprised to hear you put strategical interests above human life and dignity. Again, i am not surprised to hear people back anyone but Russia. Cold war atttudes remain and people would back satan himself so long as he expressed oposition to Russia.

Originally Posted by motivez

The media disagrees, they've been accused of running their own ethnic cleansing campaign.

Yes, the media are good at making accusations. They are not so good at providing a basis for these accusations.

Originally Posted by motivez

Occupied people? If those people are Russian citizens, let them leave to go to Russia.. No country is going to willingly give up its own territory.

I bet you werent saying go let the Kosovans move to Albania. The west loved infringing on Serbian sovereignty. They opened a can of worms that cannot be closed. At the time i said on many forums that they had set a precedent that will see all hell break loose. That is what is happening. This is a first of much more to come.

The people in the occupied regions are not Georgians, they never have been. Georgia treats them like crap nad expects them to want to come under Georgian control, that is strictly bonkers. A people should not be occupied by a foreign power, just because that foreign powers artificial borders dictate so. The people should e allowed to determine their own future.

Originally Posted by motivez

And lets not forget, Russia has funded these people similar to the way we funded groups in various countries throughout the last 60 years when we don't like the current regime.

Who exactly is it funding. The Ossetian government ? The people ? Who exactly ?

I have already said the difference between Ossetia and say US support to fringe groups in Cuba, Iran or any of the other interventions. Russia is supporting the self determination of an occupied people. The US supports changing the entire power structures of other countries. For exampe, the Ossetians are not Georgian and want out of Georgia. Cubans are Cuban. No one wanted to form a Cuban breakaway state of an occupied national group. The sought to take control of Cuba. Russia or those it support are not looking to take control of Georgia. That is quite a fine difference. It is an insult to peoples intelligence to compare the two.

Originally Posted by motivez

Sure, but it goes to show that they're interested in control over the entire Georgia proper, not simply this rebel territory and any citizens and militants it pays to be there.

That is quite a leap in logic you have made. So you would have to provide all the other premises that made you arrive at such an inclusion.

Destroying a port for instance, it is quite obvious that this can be used for the war effort, making it a legitimate target. It is not however, obvious how this supports your conclusion.

Originally Posted by motivez

I don't see an article?

Oops, sorry.

This actually wasn't the article i meant to post, but it has a similar theme.

RussiaToday : News : Violence continues despite ceasefire - reports

And some fresh news from today

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28838

[WickedLou9]

Supposedly russia is still launching air strikes even though they have declared a cease fire.

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Supposedly russia is still launching air strikes even though they have declared a cease fire.

"Supposedly" being the key word. What abouyt Georgia burning down churches with people inside after the ceasefire ?

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

"Supposedly" being the key word. What abouyt Georgia burning down churches with people inside after the ceasefire ?

Russia disputes Georgian cease-fire claim, continues bomb raids - The China Post

Russia continues bombing campaign against Georgia - Europe, World - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk

washingtonpost.com

Russian forces open new fronts in Georgia conflict, capturing ground near Gori

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

They haven't been stopped. Russia will deal out justice still. President Medvedev has rightly called on the international community to put the Georgian leadership on trial in the hague for launching an aggresive war and committing genocide, as i suggested he would. If this does not happen (and it wont since the US and UK have been doing the same crimes) Russia could and should take action themselves.

This logic must make you a fan of the US invasion of Iraq whereby the US dealt justice to a genocidal dictator, right?

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by Phantom

This logic must make you a fan of the US invasion of Iraq whereby the US dealt justice to a genocidal dictator, right?

Maybe if that was the motive and they had done it at the time of the genocide. However, they actually supported genocide by selling weapons afterwards. Quite a difference.

Oh and you dont need a full out war and occupation to bring war criminals to justice. And my main issue is that they launched an aggresive war, which is in direct conflict with the Nuremburg principles. Quite similar to what the US did in Iraq. People who do this should be brought to justice.

[Joe Castro]

Russia has shown remarkable restraint. Georgia launched an aggressive war which resulted in the death and genocide of Russian citizens. If Russia wished it would be well within it's rights to go and take out the Georgian leadership, quite as we tried to take out the Nazi leadership.

If there is not international backing for putting the Georgians in the Hague for going against the Nuremburg principles, Russia wouyld be right to charge them unilaterally.

To Donkey, i think Kosovo is the more apt comparison. We (the west) all cheered and backed Kosovan independence, but cry foul when South Ossetia does similar.

Another more fitting comparison with Israel i believe is this. It is Georgia who is like Israel. It is Georgia who goes into attack people who want nothing to do with them, who do not want to be ruled by them and whoms wish to be free from foreign domination is ignored. So in that regard we are not so hypocritical, we consistently back brutal imperialism and oppression.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Maybe if that was the motive and they had done it at the time of the genocide. However, they actually supported genocide by selling weapons afterwards. Quite a difference.

Oh and you dont need a full out war and occupation to bring war criminals to justice. And my main issue is that they launched an aggresive war, which is in direct conflict with the Nuremburg principles. Quite similar to what the US did in Iraq. People who do this should be brought to justice.

Actually, the Russian backed/funded militias in South Ossetia set off several roadside bombs which initiated this latest round of fighting:

The latest outbreak of hostilities began on July 31 after two roadside bombs hit a Georgian police Toyota SUV near the Georgian village of Eredvi. Six Georgian policemen were wounded (Interfax, August 1). Russian peacekeepers, according to the Russian Defense Ministry, discovered that the bombs were made out of 122 mm artillery shells (Ìèíèñòåðñòâî îáîðîíû Ðîññèéñêîé Ôåäåðàöèè, August 2). The road leading to Eredvi was built by the Georgians to bypass Ossetian roadblocks near the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali. Last November I traveled that road in a similar Toyota to visit the Georgian-controlled part of South Ossetia. This road has been a thorn in the side of the Ossetian separatists for some time. On July 4 a car with the pro-Georgian leader of South Ossetia Dmitry Sanakoyev, whom the separatists consider a renegade, was hit by a roadside bomb and shot at on the same road in almost the same spot. Three bodyguards were wounded, but Sanakoyev was unhurt. A surge of tension followed the attack (RIA-Novosti, July 4; Kommersant, August 4).

So, you could argue (but you wont, since you seem to be pro-Russia no matter what the circumstances), that they were simply responding to terrorist attacks within their own territory.

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by motivez

Actually, the Russian backed/funded militias in South Ossetia set off several roadside bombs which initiated this latest round of fighting:



So, you could argue (but you wont, since you seem to be pro-Russia no matter what the circumstances), that they were simply responding to terrorist attacks within their own territory.

I am not Pro Russian no matter what. I am just not blinded by a hatred of all things Russian, left over from the cold war. Neither am i just another reactionary westerner regurgitating the latest headline. I am measured and apply the same standards to Russia as i would any other people.

Firstly, how do you know the people who did this were backed and funded by Russia ? Have you seen any documentation that proves this ? In fact Russia was there in a peacekeeping position trying to prevent things like this, and to prevent what followed the attempted Georgian occupation.

On the terrorism point i flatly reject what you claim could be argued. I reject it on the basis that the South Ossetian people have consistently shown their wish for freedom from Georgia. They are not Georgian and should never been made part of Georgia. The people should have their wish and be allowed to be free. They should not be dominated by a foreign power. Resistance is just and appropriate. Although it is not possible, but hypothetically imagine the US was being held as part of Canada against its wishes. Would you not support resistance of this injustice ? I suspect you would.

[Joe Castro]

I think as so typical of Fidel's Reflections important points are raised that are conveniently avoided by the "free media". I have diluted this onefor easier and quicker consumption.



My only contention would be that the US was behind this, although they usually are behind such actions their cowardly response to Russia suggest otherwise to me.

The government of Georgia would never have launched its armed forces against the capital of the Autonomous Republic of South Ossetia in the dawn of August 8, engaged in what it called the re-establishing of constitutional order, without previous coordination with Bush who, in April in Bucharest, committed to support President Saakashvili for Georgia’s admission to NATO; that is like plunging a sharpened dagger deep into Russia’s heart. Many European member states of that military organization are seriously concerned about the irresponsible manipulation of the nationalities issue, fraught with potential conflict, which within Britain itself might result in the disintegration of the United Kingdom. This is how Yugoslavia was dismantled: Tito’s efforts to avoid that proved useless after his death.

What need was there to light the powder keg of the Caucasus? How often can the jug be taken to the well before it shatters?........

The Russian troops stationed in South Ossetia were sent there on an internationally recognized peace mission: they were not shooting wantonly.

Why did Georgia choose August 8th, at the time the Olympic Games were being opened in Beijing, to occupy Tskhinvali, the capital of the Autonomous Republic? On that day, four billion people on the entire planet were watching on television the marvelous spectacle with which China opened those Games..........

Some of the countries that made up the socialist bloc or were part of the USSR itself are today acting as U.S. protectorates. Their governments, driven by a irresponsible hatred of Russia – such as the case of Poland and the Czech Republic – aligned themselves in positions of absolute support for Bush and for the surprise attack on South Ossetia by Saakashvili.........

Following the United States and Britain, it is the country with the most soldiers in the Iraqi war adventure; and not exactly out of internationalist sentiment. When Cuba, throughout almost two decades, sent hundreds of thousands of combatants to fight for independence and against colonialism and apartheid in Africa, they were not seeking fuel, raw materials or capital gains: they were volunteers.......

What ideals are they defending there? It is only natural that people from South Ossetia do not wish to be sent as soldiers to fight in Iraq or in other parts of the planet at the behest of imperialism.

Saakashvili, on his own, would never have launched himself into the adventure of sending the Georgian army into South Ossetia, where he would be clashing with Russian troops stationed there as a peace force. A nuclear war is not something to fool around with; and providing cannon fodder to the market cannot be rewarded.

granma.cu - Reflections of Fidel

[motivez]

First of all, at the idea that my opinion of the Russian regime has anything to do with the cold war.. I'm not that old.

Secondly, as far as the same standards being applied, do you care anything about political freedom for those who aren't opposed to the west?

Should people who live in Russia be free to organize political parties, discuss their disagreements with the Russian government? Your praise of Putin ignores his human rights abuses, curtailing of individual freedoms, harassment of those who dare disagree, and so forth..

Should those in Cuba be free to leave their country? Dissent against the regime? Have a free and open press without government intimidation and control?

You say they should not be "dominated by a foreign power," but domination by a domestic state seems to be perfectly acceptable to you. So, how it is any different if that country sees those people as their own citizens?

Or are the rights of individuals only important when they don't conflict with what you think is the proper ideology?

[motivez]

I don't think that article you linked makes (m)any good points really, that whole article reads like a typical angst-filled person angry about American dominance in the world and wants to blame the US for everything in barely coherent rambling..

He goes from talking about the missile shield to rants about corporations wanting to make money... on to insulting Bush for cheering at the Olympics, and so forth.

Georgia wants to join NATO of its own accord, for obvious reasons, to prevent Russia from being such a dominating influence on its own affairs. And as you said, people shouldn't be dominated by a foreign power.. right?

So, the idea that because Bush supports their bid to join NATO (for obvious reasons, Russia is reverting to a totalitarian society who seeks to control that entire region through intimidation, and control over trade and supply routes for oil..) somehow is so offensive to Russia that the mere fact that it's offensive grants them the right to invade a sovereign nation is utterly ridiculous.