McCain traded in his Maverick badge for a Rubber Stamp.

[motivez]

The Abuse Can Continue

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...092101647.html

THE GOOD NEWS about the agreement reached yesterday between the Bush administration and Republican senators on the detention, interrogation and trial of accused terrorists is that Congress will not -- as President Bush had demanded -- pass legislation that formally reinterprets U.S. compliance with the Geneva Conventions. Nor will the Senate explicitly endorse the administration's use of interrogation techniques that most of the world regards as cruel and inhumane, if not as outright torture. Trials of accused terrorists will be fairer than the commission system outlawed in June by the Supreme Court.

The bad news is that Mr. Bush, as he made clear yesterday, intends to continue using the CIA to secretly detain and abuse certain terrorist suspects. He will do so by issuing his own interpretation of the Geneva Conventions in an executive order and by relying on questionable Justice Department opinions that authorize such practices as exposing prisoners to hypothermia and prolonged sleep deprivation. Under the compromise agreed to yesterday, Congress would recognize his authority to take these steps and prevent prisoners from appealing them to U.S. courts. The bill would also immunize CIA personnel from prosecution for all but the most serious abuses and protect those who in the past violated U.S. law against war crimes.

In short, it's hard to credit the statement by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) yesterday that "there's no doubt that the integrity and letter and spirit of the Geneva Conventions have been preserved." In effect, the agreement means that U.S. violations of international human rights law can continue as long as Mr. Bush is president, with Congress's tacit assent. If they do, America's standing in the world will continue to suffer, as will the fight against terrorism.

For now, the administration says it is not holding anyone in secret CIA facilities. The detention of those being held by the U.S. military at Guantanamo Bay clearly conforms with international law. If suspects are routed into the CIA program in the future, the administration has pledged to consult with Congress about the interrogation techniques that will be permitted. In theory, Congress could override Mr. Bush's regulations governing treatment if it judges that they are being used to authorize unacceptable practices.

But the senators who have fought to rein in the administration's excesses -- led by Sens. McCain, Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) and John W. Warner (R-Va.) -- failed to break Mr. Bush's commitment to "alternative" methods that virtually every senior officer of the U.S. military regards as unreliable, counterproductive and dangerous for Americans who may be captured by hostile governments.

Mr. Bush wanted Congress to formally approve these practices and to declare them consistent with the Geneva Conventions. It will not. But it will not stop him either, if the legislation is passed in the form agreed on yesterday. Mr. Bush will go down in history for his embrace of torture and bear responsibility for the enormous damage that has caused.

Well, I'm really dissapointed. I've pretty much lost all of my respect for McCain at this point as someone who although I disagree with on certain issues, is independent enough to do what's right when the time comes.

Over the last year or so he's really begun moving himself to the right -- perhaps for a Presidential run in order to cut down on his negatives amongst neo-cons and the very religious who see him as "too liberal".

Unfortunately, he has shown time and time again that while he may be initially willing to stand up for something he believes in, he regularly fails to follow all the way through with it. He could have fillibustered any legislation that disagreed with what he knows from personal experience is ineffective and flatly wrong, both morally AND legally.

I think he understands that this will do more harm to America than good when other countries begin issuing their own interpretations of the Geneva conventions.. if any of our soldiers are captured, they can justify whatever they want by issuing their own "clarifying opinion" on what constitutes "affronts to personal dignity" or "humiliation"..

And yet, he backed down. Why?

I guess it doesn't matter at this point, he's lost my respect and any potential vote from me.. and I'm sure many others who feel the same way about him now.

Hopefully the Democrats will, now that the Republicans have apparently decided to go ahead with their Rubber stamp after being able to look somewhat independent from the White House, find their sack, their spine, and stand up for what's right.

I do not have high hopes for that however, as too many idiots buy into heinous GOP propaganda that opposing this bill is wanting to protect terrorists more than Americans..

It's a sad day for America, one of many recently.

[Scrum]

I read about this last night.

[Thorgrim]

I really started to respect Graham and McCain over this...some of the write ups about how stubborn they were about their values...their speeches...golden stuff

They just completely sold out, I wonder how much coin they got for their souls

[hsmith]

@ you

McCain is a politican, what do you expect. He postures himself to get the most number of votes in all his positions.

[motivez]

I expected more from him because he used to be better than that.

I wouldn't expect him to commit political suicide over something, but I don't think he would be if he continued to stand up for what I'm sure he still believes in.

There have been many articles lately talking about his independence, and willingness to stand up to the Administration, and it's sparked a national debate about whether or not we should torture, one the American people are behind him on..

So, doing this is nothing more than showing he's finally given up the final vestiges of being a maverick, being independent, and hopped fully on board the neocon train.

[kinggovernor]

I think this is a good compromise, it gives Congress more oversight

[motivez]

Congress already had that oversight according to the Supreme Court, so how does this give them more exactly?

They simply haven't been excercising it, which is indicitive of the entire Republican party and their willingness to let Bush do whatever he wants to -- regardless of whether or not it's a war crame, against our own laws and our constitution, against international law, or simply against the principles this country was founded on.

This "compromise" is going to allow Bush to do everything he wants to do through executive order, and the Republican Congress will simply turn the other way.

Yet another compelling reason to vote Democrat in this election.

[Pro Street]

it saddens me as well, although I would like to get details on the compromise from something other than a Washington Post Editorial

[motivez]

That article was written by Fred Hiatt.. look him up if you don't know who he is.

The fact that he's the one who wrote that speaks volumes.

[Pro Street]

Originally Posted by motivez

That article was written by Fred Hiatt.. look him up if you don't know who he is.

The fact that he's the one who wrote that speaks volumes.

I have no idea who he is. But I do want to know what the compromise entails... I'll look it up.

[6SpeedTA95]

So is the constitution a suicide pact or what?

There's been evidence that supports the fact that we get valuable information out of TERRORIST by using "questionable" means. So where and when do you draw the line? This is a question I've asked myself over and over and over.

So to those that are so sure of themselves how and when do you know to use what methods? What is torture? what isn't?

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

So is the constitution a suicide pact or what?

There's been evidence that supports the fact that we get valuable information out of TERRORIST by using "questionable" means. So where and when do you draw the line? This is a question I've asked myself over and over and over.

So to those that are so sure of themselves how and when do you know to use what methods? What is torture? what isn't?

Psychological methods that involve confusion and comfort work better, the FBI has been saying this to the CIA for years, the FBI has been interrogating religious fanatics for decades...the CIA is used to handling agents with top secret codes from communist Russia...

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Psychological methods that involve confusion and comfort work better, the FBI has been saying this to the CIA for years, the FBI has been interrogating religious fanatics for decades...the CIA is used to handling agents with top secret codes from communist Russia...

Got any links? Not because I necessarily think you're wrong but because I've read shit tons on this and seen literally a dozen different TV spots on it and the majority point to the fact that valuable info was gained from terrorist specifically Khalid Sheik Muhammed (sp) via "questionable methods".

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Got any links? Not because I necessarily think you're wrong but because I've read shit tons on this and seen literally a dozen different TV spots on it and the majority point to the fact that valuable info was gained from terrorist specifically Khalid Sheik Muhammed (sp) via "questionable methods".

ABC News: Ex-FBI Agent: Harsh Interrogation Doesn't Work

Yeah he cracked after like 10 seconds of water torture...which raises the question...did you really need to...

If a guy cracks after 10 seconds of that, don't you think a few hours of something else would have worked too? This wasn't a ticking timebomb situation either

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

ABC News: Ex-FBI Agent: Harsh Interrogation Doesn't Work

Yeah he cracked after like 10 seconds of water torture...which raises the question...did you really need to...

If a guy cracks after 10 seconds of that, don't you think a few hours of something else would have worked too? This wasn't a ticking timebomb situation either

An ABC reporter was on Fox this week twice saying that it took him 2mins and 30 seconds to give up the info which was a ridiculously long period of time.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

An ABC reporter was on Fox this week twice saying that it took him 2mins and 30 seconds to give up the info which was a ridiculously long period of time.

Again though...300 seconds...did you really need it that fast that we had to give up the moral high ground with water torture?

What if we would have gotten it in 3 seconds if we started cutting off his fingers?

Like Powell said, we are losing the moral basis for the war on terror

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Again though...300 seconds...did you really need it that fast that we had to give up the moral high ground with water torture?

What if we would have gotten it in 3 seconds if we started cutting off his fingers?

Like Powell said, we are losing the moral basis for the war on terror

But I dont know that I agree with that...I guess I'm a fence rider on this one, I dunno..but 2.5 minutes is a small price to pay for saving potentiall thousands of US citizens. Could we have gotten it otherwise? I dunno according to the ABC guy they threated him, his wife, his children and "water boarding" was the last resort and since it doesn't acutally kill you is it really torture? If it is then how do you constitute torture? Mental aguish isn't torture. I have rough days at work that are mentally and phsyically draining but its hardly torture.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

But I dont know that I agree with that...I guess I'm a fence rider on this one, I dunno..but 2.5 minutes is a small price to pay for saving potentiall thousands of US citizens. Could we have gotten it otherwise? I dunno according to the ABC guy they threated him, his wife, his children and "water boarding" was the last resort and since it doesn't acutally kill you is it really torture? If it is then how do you constitute torture? Mental aguish isn't torture. I have rough days at work that are mentally and phsyically draining but its hardly torture.

There are 1000x of ways to torture someone without putting them in mortal danger, just ask yourself if you want US soldiers subjected to that

Like ripping off someones fingernails with pliers...absolutely non-fatal but its absolute torture by anyones standards

You are falling back on some sort of ticking time bomb strategy, and again you torture someone good enough they'll tell you they started the Chicago fire...it produces bad intelligence

Torture has never been a reliable way of extracting information, and it never will be...

[SoFlaJDM]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Torture has never been a reliable way of extracting information, and it never will be...

mccain said that, didn't he


oh the ironing