Lebanon Parliament Endorses Resistance

[Joe Castro]

This is a good outcome of the vote. Resistance must always be a tool for liberation. Had the French not resisted Nazi occupation of their land we would have been appalled. The Lebanese people like he Palestinian people and all occupied people be they in Iraq or Ossetia should always seek to resist

Confidence vote in Lebanon's national unity cabinet endorses Hezbollah's right to use all options to liberate territories occupied by Israel.

One hundred members of the 128-seat parliament voted for cabinet on Tuesday.

The confidence vote endorsed the government's drafting of a policy statement that supports the Lebanese right to reclaim “Israeli-occupied” lands including the Shebaa Farms and the divided border village of Ghajar.

Press TV - Lebanon confidence vote endorses Hezbollah

[motivez]

mm, "all options" .. including targeting civilians? Although I guess you could argue that since Israel has forced conscription in their military, no one is really a civilian through the use of some one sided logic.

I fully support their right to resist Israeli oppression and occupation, but I don't agree with their methodology.. there's no way their military attacks can be successful in the face of such overwhelming Israeli dominance (courtesy of the American taxpayer), so they should be using diplomacy in order to get the international community further behind their efforts (which, in many cases are completely legitimate)..

If they were not a violent force, they would have much more support, and the US would not be able to protect Israel from rightful condemnation of their actions through the specter of it being 'retaliation' and 'protection'..

[C4Casey]

So, Castro, are you saying that you support Hezbollah? I'm just asking because, as far as terrosrist organizations go, the only terrorist group that has killed more Americans than Hezbollah is Al-Qaeda. They also indiscriminatly targeted civilian populations during the last war.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by C4Casey

So, Castro, are you saying that you support Hezbollah? I'm just asking because, as far as terrosrist organizations go, the only terrorist group that has killed more Americans than Hezbollah is Al-Qaeda. They also indiscriminatly targeted civilian populations during the last war.

Hezbollah has many different aspects to it, including a humanitarian one. If you look at the relief effort they provided to those thousands of civilians who suffered at the hands of Israel's indiscriminate bombing campaign, it was pretty impressive.. Much more organized than the disgrace that was our Katrina relief efforts.

They were handing out food, water, money for rebuilding, etc.. Is it any wonder the population over there supports them?

[C4Casey]

I'm not disputing that. I just think that their military precense in the region serves to both de-stablize the relationship between Israel and Lebanan and also serves as a puppet political platform for Iran and Syria. Sure, Hezbollah has done great humanitarian things. But let us not forget what the ultimate intentions of Hezbollah are. They seek to create an Islamic state similiar to Iran. This would create yet ANOTHER enemy of the West in the region, and it would be DISASTEROUS to alot of Lebanese people. Lebanon is a multi-cultural country, with fairly large populations of Christians, Jews, and secular Muslims. What do you think would happen to those people if an Islamic state like Iran took power in Lebanon?

[Charles Martel]

Originally Posted by motivez

Hezbollah has many different aspects to it, including a humanitarian one. If you look at the relief effort they provided to those thousands of civilians who suffered at the hands of Israel's indiscriminate bombing campaign, it was pretty impressive.. Much more organized than the disgrace that was our Katrina relief efforts.

They were handing out food, water, money for rebuilding, etc.. Is it any wonder the population over there supports them?

"They" were handing out food, water, and money? Hezbollah?

They're an Iranian terrorist group, Motivez, where do you think that money comes from? What...is Hezbollah an industrial giant now...did I miss something? They have excess food and water and money for rebuilding?

Wake the F up! The "they" you admire so are cutthroat terrorists and an Iranian puppet. Iran is pulling the strings here.....Chief.

Hezbollah with humanitarian motives, huh? Their Jihad now a humanitarian endeavor? What a f'n joke.

[motivez]

I'd suggest doing some reading instead of simply spouting angry rhetoric. You wont win anyone over by taking that tact.

I'm well aware of their militant wing, I never denied that they had one, and unlike you've done with this post, I wont deny facts.

That said, they do have a humanitarian wing to the organization that did play a major role in reconstruction and relief efforts in the wake of Israel's indiscriminate bombing campaign which took a heavy toll on civilians in Lebanon.

Try reading if you'd like to learn about it. Of course, you wont find much coverage of it in the US press, as it doesn't fit the approved narrative you're reading your script from.

Here's one such article:

Armed Militants Helping Lebanon Rebuild

By Matthias Gebauer in Beit Lif, Lebanon

From rockets to reconstruction: the Islamic militant group Hezbollah has quickly switched its priorities from fighting Israeli troops to helping with reconstruction efforts in southern Lebanon. Hardworking, well organized and not about to disarm or retreat, they are impressing local residents.

The orders from Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah were very clear, but militia commander Suliman couldn't carry them out this time. The head of the Shiite extremist group told his fighters by radio on Saturday that as part of the cease-fire agreement starting this week they were to switch from military camouflage to civilian clothing. Suliman would have gladly obeyed, but there was just one problem.

"Unfortunately I only have one pair of trousers," says the Hezbollah veteran while grinning embarrassedly. "What can I do?"

So even though the guns have fallen silent, Suliman still thoroughly looks the part of militant fighter. He has a pistol stuck into his camouflage pants, a crackling radio peeks out of his pocket and he says he's rarely managed to take off his combat boots in recent days. The gray-bearded man is surrounded by his younger fighters, all of whom are still heavily armed. Normally forbidden to talk to journalists, they appear uncertain. But the 46-year-old commander has given his approval.

Suliman eagerly tells of how his troop fought Israeli forces until the last moments before the cease-fire. "I gave the order before we brought down the helicopter on Saturday," he says pointing to a spot somewhere in the mountainous region near the border. "It was an uplifting feeling." The Hezbollah commander even claims there are still plenty of dead Israeli soldiers in the hills. "They're afraid to recover them."

Of course, it's far from certain whether Suliman's 40-man unit actually shot down an Israeli chopper. However, all of Israel's heavy ordinance couldn't dislodge them from the village of Beit Lif, only three kilometers from the border. If Suliman is to be believed, he didn't lose a single man to the bombardment. "Up till the end we fired dozens of rockets in Israel's direction," he says. "We still have a few in the depots."

But today Suliman has different orders. Together with ten of his fighters he is gathering dead cows scattered around the 2,500-person village with a backhoe. Another four men are using a bulldozer to remove rubble from the streets. "We still have a lot to do," he says while looking at his watch. "We want to start with the rebuilding soon."

Beit Lif suffered considerable damage in the month-long conflict and Hassan is happy to show a destroyed farm as part of a tour of the village. The 34-year-old is a teacher from Beirut, but he's also part of what could be considered Hezbollah's militia reserves. Bragging about his fighting skills and how many Israelis he killed in a rocket attack on a Kibbutz in the nearby hills, he says he will now help with the reconstruction efforts before returning to the Lebanese capital to teach children English.

Hezbollah's reconstruction helpers are everywhere in southern Lebanon right now. Those men fighting in the port town of Tyre only days ago are now the ones clearing the streets, raising electricity masts and offering aid to local residents. The quick reorganization from combat to relief help made it possible for many refugees to return to their homes. Nasrallah even claims Hezbollah will rebuild the country on its own.

More than a fighting force

The militant group has always supplemented its fighting and terrorist operations with humanitarian efforts including supporting clinics and schools -- partly explaining its broad appeal with many in Lebanon. But now Hezbollah is hoping to gain popularity by rebuilding after a conflict that many blame the militants for starting in the first place. But in the bombed out town Qana, it's clear who's to blame. "We Will Rebuild What the Murdering Jews Have Destroyed," reads one banner.

The group certainly won't have a problem coming up with money for aiding reconstruction. Since the latest conflict broke out, Hezbollah's charitable foundations have been swamped with donations from throughout the Arab world. The images of destruction caused by Israeli air strikes have made heroes out of Nasrallah's outgunned men. And now they will show they care about the Lebanese people's plight as much as they hate Israel.

Along with money, Hezbollah seems to have everything else it needs for large-scale relief efforts: heavy construction equipment, building supplies and plenty of manpower. Until international aid arrives, Hezbollah will have finished much of the most pressing work. The extremists' own TV station, Al-Manar reported that hundreds of pre-fabricated houses were already being delivered around Tyre.

Even those unsympathetic to the Islamists are willing to accept their help right now. Fatma, a 34-year-old woman who is six months pregnant, has returned to the almost completely leveled town of Siddik to stand before her destroyed home. Two bombs turned the house her husband built for $150,000 into a large crater. She is angry at Hezbollah for sparking the fighting by kidnapping two Israeli soldiers.

"They've destroyed our lives with their nonsense," Fatma says while looking around to make sure there aren't any bearded militia members driving bulldozers nearby. "Everyone knew that Israel would attack."

But when asked who will help Lebanon pick up the pieces now that the fighting was over she falls silent at first. "The first help will come from Hezbollah," she says. "Then hopefully Europe will help." But her opinions are not widely shared in a region laid to waste buy hundreds of bombs. And Hezbollah's speedy response is likely to only strengthen the group's roots in the local population.

And that could make the mission of the Lebanese army and a United Nations peacekeeping mission to southern Lebanon more difficult. Suliman and his fighters certainly have no intention of laying down their weapons and demobilizing. "If Hezbollah left, the region would be completely empty," says Suliman grinning. "That can hardly be the goal of the UN, right?"

Hezbollah's Reconstruction Role: Armed Militants Helping Lebanon Rebuild - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

It's a good article, one of many similar ones out there that you can find if you're interested in educating yourself further.

[Joe Castro]

This is another good article which shows another side to Hezbollah and shows they are not looking to simply to create another Iran. They actually have done more than most for Lebanese democracy. They also have certain secular credentials.

Like Motivez said, people really ought to do a little background work on Hezbollah.

In the mid-1990s, it spearheaded a successful campaign to reintroduce democratic governance to the country’s municipalities, where no elections had been held since 1963..........

“Z.H.,” who asked to be described simply as “a source close to Hizbullah,” talked to me about the party’s strategy for working within Lebanon’s problematically democratic political system. At the parliamentary level, the Hizbullah-led bloc now has 12 deputies out of 128, including, as Z.H. eagerly noted, “two Sunnis and one Christian.” Although Hizbullah has held a parliamentary bloc of around this size since 1992, it has thus far refused to seek any ministerial slots. Z.H. explained why:

We feel that a party that’s in the government should influence its whole program . . . But in Lebanon, you can’t pursue your own party’s program in government because governments are always formed through coalitions. Elsewhere, you can have one party in government, with one program. And then, it’s easier to hold the party accountable.
Then, there are the expectations of the people. We represent a great proportion of the people. But if you are in such an impotent government, then you sully your reputation with the people. In Lebanon, corruption is everywhere. The institutions need to be completely renewed. This is very difficult, and will take time.
Also, the political structure here is still sectarian. In this system people are led not by reason but by emotions and tribalism. We feel that most of the other politicians are leading people as tribe-members, by appealing to their sectional interests, rather than as citizens.
So altogether, it seems hard for us to go into government at the present time and just reap all the disadvantages from the way things are done there.
Z.H. is quite right about the obstacles to accountable governance in Lebanon. A rigid system of sectarian quotas has continued to operate even after the 1989 Taef Accord, which (more or less) ended 14 years of civil war. Taef did call for an eventual dismantling of the country’s “confessional” system but meanwhile decreed its continuation by requiring that the president be a Maronite Christian, the prime minister a Sunni, and the speaker of parliament a Shiite. (The last position is held by Nabih Berri, a very close ally of Syria and the head of Lebanon’s other main Shiite party, Amal.) Ministerial posts and seats in Parliament are allocated according to an even more fine-tuned distribution among the country’s 15 religious and ethnic subgroups.

The 1998 municipal elections, held on a one-person-one-vote basis, created much greater opportunities for democratic governance at the local level. Z.H. told me that in localities where Hizbullah won municipal elections,

we have tried to reform the municipal institutions, and in some places we have succeeded. We have tried to learn how to lead in coalitions with other parties, in order to provide good services to the people . . . It is important that the municipalities should work for the benefit of everyone, regardless of religion or region. You know in our tradition we have a saying that “the best person is one who serves others.” People depend on our members and friends to provide good services because they are not doing so in a corrupt way. We are very attentive to that...........

Ghaleb Abu Zeinab is the politburo member who is in charge of Hizbullah’s relations with Lebanon’s non-Shiite communities. Given that the Shiites make up probably just under half of the total Lebanese population, this job has always been very important. Abu Zeinab and his boss, Hizbullah’s 44-year-old secretary-general, Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, have carried it out with considerable skill. Like Z.H., Abu Zeinab stressed the importance of building a sense of common citizenship, as well as bridges of understanding across the country’s faith communities. “We have always been living together here in Lebanon,” he said. He attributed responsibility for many of the intercommunal crises that had wracked the country over the decades mainly to “outside circumstances,” though he also criticized the Maronites:

The end of the Cold War allowed us to start to get back to normal. This didn’t solve all our problems, though . . . The Maronites saw the Taef Accord as a big defeat. But it wasn’t, because it represented the true balance, more or less. But then, between their disappointment with that and the economic downturn we had in the 1990s there was a big emigration of Maronites and other Christians out of the country. In addition, they boycotted the parliamentary elections of 1992 and 1996.
That emigration has had complex implications for Hizbullah’s political project. “If you look at who is registered as a Lebanese citizen,” Abu Zeinab said, “it would be a few more Muslims there than Christians. However, 30 percent of the registered Christians are outside the country . . . Yes, the Christians are afraid of having a one-person-one-vote system here. That’s why we don’t have one yet, even though Taef called explicitly for an ending of the ‘confessional’ system of government.”

He said, however, that Hizbullah did not intend to force a one-person-one-vote system onto the country’s Christians:

If we want to get to full democracy here we need to have everyone persuaded of its benefits, and not afraid that they would be overthrown. Besides, we look at the coexistence we have between the different confessions here as an example, and we don’t want to overthrow it. If it was a “majority-minority” system here it would be explosive. So we’ll hang onto this confessional balance we have for now. But I don’t know what will happen in 20 years.
As a religious principle for us, we should serve the people. So we tried to present a positive example in all the municipalities that we won. We made the areas safe. We built basic infrastructure. Here in the Dahiyeh, we lead all the three municipalities . . . And we have other big ones, too: Nabatieh, Baalbek, Hermel.
We presented a new example, and this increased our popularity . . . We say that our mayors should serve the whole of the people in their towns, rather than serving just the party.

Helena Cobban: Hizbullah's New Face

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by motivez

mm, "all options" .. including targeting civilians? Although I guess you could argue that since Israel has forced conscription in their military, no one is really a civilian through the use of some one sided logic.

I fully support their right to resist Israeli oppression and occupation, but I don't agree with their methodology.. there's no way their military attacks can be successful in the face of such overwhelming Israeli dominance (courtesy of the American taxpayer), so they should be using diplomacy in order to get the international community further behind their efforts (which, in many cases are completely legitimate)..

If they were not a violent force, they would have much more support, and the US would not be able to protect Israel from rightful condemnation of their actions through the specter of it being 'retaliation' and 'protection'..

I don't believe that to be true. I believe that if they dont resist they will just disappear from the media. If they disappear from the media then the international community will do nothing. Governments only change the status quo under pressure and that is what resistance directly brings and indirectly through media coverage. If they didnt resist no one would have ever heard of them or know of their plight.

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by C4Casey

So, Castro, are you saying that you support Hezbollah? I'm just asking because, as far as terrosrist organizations go, the only terrorist group that has killed more Americans than Hezbollah is Al-Qaeda. They also indiscriminatly targeted civilian populations during the last war.

I don't know about support. There are things i agree with and things i don't. I support the resistance. I support the fact that they do much humanitarian work and have certain democratic credentials.

As for having killed Americans, i don't differentiate between Americans and any other people. Nationality is irrelevant in determining a persons value.

You have to be pragmatic about things and understand Hezbollah represent the values of a great amount of Lebanese. When a group represents so many people you are eventually going to have to deal with them, whether you like them or not. Other people could take the stance you do and hold a grudge, no progress would be made in many places in the world. Iraqi's could say no one has killed more of us than the Americans, the Afghans could, the Vietnamese could still hold a grudge, the Japanese. You eventually have to have reconciliation or you will forever seek retaliation and the other side will do the same.

[Charles Martel]

Originally Posted by motivez

It's a good article, one of many similar ones out there that you can find if you're interested in educating yourself further.

Look where they're getting their money? From Iran and then the Arab nations! This isn't Hezbollah taking from it's own and handing it out. This isn't Hezbollah's warm and fuzzies coming out and making sacrifices, changing their militantism to rebuild humanity within Lebanon. It's a calculated method along with signs and propaganda about rebuilding "what the jews have destroyed." Swallowed hook, line, and sinker by the more easily confused.

So gullible, Motivez, so easily swayed. Pathetic.

[Smull]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

I don't believe that to be true. I believe that if they dont resist they will just disappear from the media. If they disappear from the media then the international community will do nothing. Governments only change the status quo under pressure and that is what resistance directly brings and indirectly through media coverage. If they didnt resist no one would have ever heard of them or know of their plight.

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

You have to be pragmatic about things and understand Hezbollah represent the values of a great amount of Lebanese. When a group represents so many people you are eventually going to have to deal with them, whether you like them or not.

These two statements strike me as contradictory, either they have to resist violently to advance their cause, or if they reach enough people they won't be able to be ignored. Unless Lebanese only respond to violence and terrorism I don't see how both could be true. I think their violence and militancy is hurting their cause much more than its helping.

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by Smull

These two statements strike me as contradictory, either they have to resist violently to advance their cause, or if they reach enough people they won't be able to be ignored. Unless Lebanese only respond to violence and terrorism I don't see how both could be true. I think their violence and militancy is hurting their cause much more than its helping.

All i can think is you have failed to understand one or both statements as both defend the resistance.

All i am saying is they have to resist and we have to speak to them regardless of if they resist our puppets or not. There is no contradiction.

[C4Casey]

The Nazis resisted the American/British/Russian invasion of WWII. That made them neither rightous nor moral. The Georgians are currently resisting a Russian invasion. That does not by default mean the cause they fight for is just. It doesn't matter whether you fight a war of resistance or not. What matters is the cause you fight for. Hezbollah is fighting to establish a theocratic islamic state. I therefore can not support any of their actions. Whether or not they "resist" israeli occupation is
irrelevant .

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by C4Casey

The Nazis resisted the American/British/Russian invasion of WWII. That made them neither rightous nor moral. The Georgians are currently resisting a Russian invasion. That does not by default mean the cause they fight for is just. It doesn't matter whether you fight a war of resistance or not. What matters is the cause you fight for. Hezbollah is fighting to establish a theocratic islamic state. I therefore can not support any of their actions. Whether or not they "resist" israeli occupation is
irrelevant .

Almost everything you said is inaccurate. Firstly, Russia is not an invader but a defender - Georgia invaded South Ossetia. Also, there really was no resistance in WW2, yes the Germany army fought, but it was not a resistance as no one sought to dominate Germany and the German people actually by and large welcomed the foreign troops getting rid of the Nazi's who had destroyed their country.

However, the most important point is your last one. Please read the article i provided before you make such comments as what you have said really highlights a lack of understanding of what Hezbollah is.

[motivez]

Russia is an invader, they've entered Georgia proper, and what is internationally recognized as Georgian territory in South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by motivez

Russia is an invader, they've entered Georgia proper, and what is internationally recognized as Georgian territory in South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

lol that is like callind the allied forces the invaders in WW2. Complete circular logic.