Happy Birthday Fidel

[Angus_Aboot]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

This is the biggest nonsense i have ever heard. The Soviet Union was the second most powerful country on the planet. That does not happen under an ineffective system, it just can't. So you better re-think your comments.

The Soviet Union lead the way in space exploration, it had arguably the strongest military on the planet. It achieved the quickest industrialisation of any state in history.

It was bankrupted by an arms race, an arms race that would also have bankrupted the UK or France if they had to keep such levels of spending up. Is that proof that British or French capitalism is a failed system ?

Why couldn't such an effective system keep up in arms race but still (apparently) lead the way in the space race? Are arms tricky business or something?

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Its not a matter of being responsible enough to provide for yourself, it is a matter of some people simply cannot and you have a responsibility to help them.

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

That is where your types are often so confused. You try to compare third world countries to an imperialits superpower. Compare Cuba to countries in the carribean and Latin America, compare iot to countries of similar wealth. What you attempt to do is compare apples and oranges.

Why isn't Cuba powerful like the USSR was? Russia was once an extremely poor country and Cuba had the most vibrant economy in Latin America before 1959, What happened?
And since the USSR stopped sending aid the country has tumbled even further:


(The two upsurges can be explained by extreme variations on sugar production, loosened economic measures [briefly] and tourism spikes)
The standard of living for the general population as declined rapidly since the 80's

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Whether microwaves or computers are legal is irrelevant. The fact is people in such countries cannot afford them. Wha Cuba is doing is making sure people have the neccesities of life, luxuries are an afterthought and rightfully so.

Why would they have to be made illegal though? Who does that law help?

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Where to start. Fidel has looted nothing, he lives very modestly for a head of state. You are just regurgitating US propaganda and lies. Your claim about being a near billionaire is a known lie.

And your claim that it isa failed ideology is simply rubbish. It has not failed. The only reason there is no Soviet Union is because it was caught up in an arms race in an attempt to save itself from an aggressive west. Any other country but the US empire would have went bankrupt too. So it is no failure of communism. As for China, it has made its people poorer not richer. They now have to pay for things like educations which they never did before.

And you are being extremely foolish to say that the Cuban people suffer. Is having a first world life expectancy in a third world country suffering ? Is having less mothers and babies die in childbirth than in the US suffering ? Is having a free education including university suffering ? Is free housing suffering ?

The true wealth of a country can only be determined by looking at the wealth of its poorest citizens. If we do this Cuba comes up a winner against almost and maybe all states.

I have asked this before, but you never seem to want to answer it. If Cuba is so wonderful, why do they lock everyone in?

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

I have asked this before, but you never seem to want to answer it. If Cuba is so wonderful, why do they lock everyone in?

I was talking to my girlfriend about this last night during the Olympics. We were wondering how many athletes just won't go home.

Looked it up and found stuff like this:
http://www.nydailynews.com/latino/20...national_.html

The Cuban national judo team prepared to return home Monday without one of its stars, whose weekend disappearance fueled speculation she is defecting.

Yurisel Laborde, a two-time world champion and 2004 Olympic bronze medalist, was not with the team when it arrived Monday at Miami International Airport for its flight home after competing in the Pan American Judo Championships. She has not been seen since Sunday.

A couple weeks ago Cuban baseball players defected into Canada.

HAVANA -- Former Cuban leader Fidel Castro said on Thursday two Cuban baseball players had gone missing during a junior tournament in Canada, where officials say they had likely defected.
...
"Edmonton has become a trash bin. The Cuban athletes were poorly attended," Castro wrote in his column. "It must be analyzed if it's worth competing there."

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/internat...n-athletes.htm

It doesn't seem uncommon for athletes to leave Cuba for events and use it as their means to leave their families and lives behind for the chance of escape.

Here's some good old stories...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6920955.stm

Cuban athletes have made a hurried departure from the Pan-American games in Brazil, apparently amid fears of possible mass defections.

The delegation was rushed at short notice to Rio de Janeiro's airport, leaving the men's volleyball team no time to collect their bronze medals.

The athletes were said to have been ordered to leave the games before the finishing ceremony on Sunday.

It follows the defection of four Cuban athletes earlier in the tournament.

It's quite sad really. Even Castro realizes his country sucks and his people don't want to go home to their country. So he won't even allow them to collect their medals for fear of losing a few citizens.

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by Angus_Aboot

Why couldn't such an effective system keep up in arms race but still (apparently) lead the way in the space race? Are arms tricky business or something?

They more than kept up for quite sometime and many ways did lead. However, a constant arms race was never going to be possible. There comes a point when such huge expenditure must bring you to your knees. Ih ave said it before and will say it again, no other country could have kept up that level of spending either, it would have bankrupted Britain or France too - would that be proof of the ineffectiveness of capitalism ? I think not.

Originally Posted by Angus_Aboot

Why isn't Cuba powerful like the USSR was? Russia was once an extremely poor country and Cuba had the most vibrant economy in Latin America before 1959, What happened?

Many reasons, manpower for one. The USSR had the human strength to do incredible things. However, the most obvious reason is the USSR was rich in resources. Cuba is not. You only need to look at its oilk and gas production to know this. If Cuba had those it coud do an awful lot more.

Originally Posted by Angus_Aboot

And since the USSR stopped sending aid the country has tumbled even further:


(The two upsurges can be explained by extreme variations on sugar production, loosened economic measures [briefly] and tourism spikes)
The standard of living for the general population as declined rapidly since the 80's

It was not just a resultof the lack of strategical investment from the USSR, Cuba also lost its number one source of exports. Russia was in no position to buy all the goods it wanted and when the stooge Yeltsin sold the economy to US loving gangsters it would be impossible for any governent to bring in such materials from Cuba.

You don't need to tell me about the difficulties of the Special Period. It produced a short hell for CUba which it faced and defeated with a steely determinition and upholding the basic principles of the revolution. It not only had to find new trading partners without the socialist block, it had to do without basics for life and the economy becuase of the inhumane policies of the US. These were policies which stopped medical trade with Cuba through third party subsiduaries, which sent away foreign ships which had stopped in Cuba, thus making them choose - either trade with tiny Cuba or the huge US - that itself being against the US supposed love of market forces, it was direct interference in the market they so proclaim to love.

Originally Posted by Angus_Aboot

Why would they have to be made illegal though? Who does that law help?

It helps everyone. In a planned economy you (the planners) do not purchase things which people neither need or can afford, you purchase things which people do need and can afford. Had planners purchased such luxuries they would have to decrease spending in other areas.

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

I have asked this before, but you never seem to want to answer it. If Cuba is so wonderful, why do they lock everyone in?

Because CUba is at war. It faces invasion, subversion and terrorism from an empire 90 miles from it. It is in a war for survival and in every such war there are always a tiny minority of traitors ready to get in bed with the aggressive enemy. Even in 1930's - 40-s Britain there were brownshirted Hitlerites ready to jump in bed with the Nazi party. You have to take acyions against such people.

Limits are put on freedom to protect freedom. For every thousand loyal Cubans there is another Orlando Bosch, waiting to get out and get trained and supported by the US. Measures have to be taken to prevent the mass murder that the empire would have them commit.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by JaJae

I was talking to my girlfriend about this last night during the Olympics. We were wondering how many athletes just won't go home.

Looked it up and found stuff like this:
Top Cuban athlete missing from national judo team



A couple weeks ago Cuban baseball players defected into Canada.

Cuban athletes missing, likely defected - The China Post

It doesn't seem uncommon for athletes to leave Cuba for events and use it as their means to leave their families and lives behind for the chance of escape.

Here's some good old stories...
BBC NEWS | Americas | Cuban athletes leave games early


It's quite sad really. Even Castro realizes his country sucks and his people don't want to go home to their country. So he won't even allow them to collect their medals for fear of losing a few citizens.

And these are most likely people who have a pretty decent life in comparison to most other Cubans.

One of my best friends was born in Cuba and his family ESCAPED the Fidel revolution. His dad was a doctor and teacher and those people tended not to live long when confronted with Fidel's axe men. My friend, Jorge, went back to visit family about 9 years ago. It was a risk because, since he was born in Cuba, Cuba still sees him as a citizen and there was a chance if they found that out they could have forced him to serve in the military and not allowed him to leave.

He cried when he talked about the conditions his family lives in. His grandmother is not allowed to buy milk and most medications, those are for the young. They have almost no possessions. Fidel was on TV and gave one of his 3 hour long speeches. Everyone is expected to watch those. Police walk the streets to make sure people are inside watching TV. If a family doesn't have a TV they have to go to a house that does. Jorge started to criticize what Castro was saying but his family stopped him. They never talk about him, even in their own houses, for fear someone is listening.

When Jorge left he borrowed an old pair of shorts and a t-shirt from an uncle and left everything he brought with him there, including his suitcase and toothbrush. They have so little they were really happy to have anything.



Anyone who thinks that Cuba is a great place is just fooling themselves and ignorant to reality.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Because CUba is at war. It faces invasion, subversion and terrorism from an empire 90 miles from it. It is in a war for survival and in every such war there are always a tiny minority of traitors ready to get in bed with the aggressive enemy. Even in 1930's - 40-s Britain there were brownshirted Hitlerites ready to jump in bed with the Nazi party. You have to take acyions against such people.

Limits are put on freedom to protect freedom. For every thousand loyal Cubans there is another Orlando Bosch, waiting to get out and get trained and supported by the US. Measures have to be taken to prevent the mass murder that the empire would have them commit.

Wrong. Cuba locks everyone in because if they didn't everyone would leave in droves. Communism doesn't work. A mighty few taking away basic human rights from the many is oppression, not freedom.

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Wrong. Cuba locks everyone in because if they didn't everyone would leave in droves. Communism doesn't work. A mighty few taking away basic human rights from the many is oppression, not freedom.

You're good on sounbites, not so good on substance.

I have to wonder why you have a picture of a man you should by reason stand to hate as your avatar. After all, no man curtailed more freedoms in the UK in the name of securing long term freedom.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

You're good on sounbites, not so good on substance.

I have to wonder why you have a picture of a man you should by reason stand to hate as your avatar. After all, no man curtailed more freedoms in the UK in the name of securing long term freedom.

Churchill made prisoners of his countrymen for 50 years? Arrested and killed members of the opposing party? He didn't allow free travel , freedom of the press and free speech to his citizens? Took control of all business activities and kept the profit and distributed it as HE saw fit? Did he jail poets and writers? Did he ban religion and arrest people that celebrated Christmas? Did Churchill proclaim himself leader for life?

Yeah, Churchill stepped on his peoples rights WAY more than Castro

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Churchill made prisoners of his countrymen for 50 years? Arrested and killed members of the opposing party? He didn't allow free travel , freedom of the press and free speech to his citizens? Took control of all business activities and kept the profit and distributed it as HE saw fit? Did he jail poets and writers? Did he ban religion and arrest people that celebrated Christmas? Did Churchill proclaim himself leader for life?

Yeah, Churchill stepped on his peoples rights WAY more than Castro

There are so many things wrong with that. Where to begin.

Okay, I never said he "stepped on peoples rights more than Castro". I said he halted freedoms more than anyone in the UK. He did this with the same motivation as Castro - protecting the peoples long term freedom and independence.

ANd Castro has never made himself "leader for life", he was always elected through the CUban system. If he was leader for life he would by definition still be President.

And the answer to the question about free travel and press is, yes, he did not allow any of these. In World War 1 he supported the Defence of the Realm ACt and in World War 2 he was a backer of the act which abandoned democracy, introduced censorship and was used to arrest anyone and everyone thought to be harming the war effort.

He also did take control of most business, mainly to build weapons. All of this was done in the name of freedom from imperialist tyranny - exactly what the CUban government is defending tis people from.

If CHurchill was alive and the war hadn't ended you can be sure these practices would still be in place, and rightly so.

[7960]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Because CUba is at war. It faces invasion, subversion and terrorism from an empire 90 miles from it. It is in a war for survival and in every such war there are always a tiny minority of traitors ready to get in bed with the aggressive enemy. Even in 1930's - 40-s Britain there were brownshirted Hitlerites ready to jump in bed with the Nazi party. You have to take acyions against such people.

Limits are put on freedom to protect freedom. For every thousand loyal Cubans there is another Orlando Bosch, waiting to get out and get trained and supported by the US. Measures have to be taken to prevent the mass murder that the empire would have them commit.

he asked "if it's such a utopia why won't castro let anyone leave?" and your answer seems to be "because the US is bad!"

that's a good reason to close cuba's borders to US immigration, but that doesn't explain why castro won't let cubans LEAVE.

care to answer that?

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

There are so many things wrong with that. Where to begin.

Okay, I never said he "stepped on peoples rights more than Castro". I said he halted freedoms more than anyone in the UK. He did this with the same motivation as Castro - protecting the peoples long term freedom and independence.

ANd Castro has never made himself "leader for life", he was always elected through the CUban system. If he was leader for life he would by definition still be President.

And the answer to the question about free travel and press is, yes, he did not allow any of these. In World War 1 he supported the Defence of the Realm ACt and in World War 2 he was a backer of the act which abandoned democracy, introduced censorship and was used to arrest anyone and everyone thought to be harming the war effort.

He also did take control of most business, mainly to build weapons. All of this was done in the name of freedom from imperialist tyranny - exactly what the CUban government is defending tis people from.

If CHurchill was alive and the war hadn't ended you can be sure these practices would still be in place, and rightly so.

Ok dude....

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by 7960

he asked "if it's such a utopia why won't castro let anyone leave?" and your answer seems to be "because the US is bad!"

that's a good reason to close cuba's borders to US immigration, but that doesn't explain why castro won't let cubans LEAVE.

care to answer that?

Care to read what i said ?

Limits are put on freedom to protect freedom. For every thousand loyal Cubans there is another Orlando Bosch, waiting to get out and get trained and supported by the US. Measures have to be taken to prevent the mass murder that the empire would have them commit.

To spell it out. The American empire will train, fund and arm every dissident who leaves. They will then commit acts of mass murder against the Cuban people. I cannot make it any simpler.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Care to read what i said ?

Limits are put on freedom to protect freedom. For every thousand loyal Cubans there is another Orlando Bosch, waiting to get out and get trained and supported by the US. Measures have to be taken to prevent the mass murder that the empire would have them commit.

To spell it out. The American empire will train, fund and arm every dissident who leaves. They will then commit acts of mass murder against the Cuban people. I cannot make it any simpler.

Well, there are 100's of thousands living in the US now. It's estimated Cuba has lost 10% of it's population to people fleeing to other countries. It's not like the US doesn't have the means to take over the country at any time they wanted. They don't have to wait for enough Cubans to leave the country to do it.

And what freedom are you talking about? The Cuban people sure don't have the same freedoms you or I have. Or are you talking about the freedom of the government to do whatever they want to their population without worry of repercussion?

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Well, there are 100's of thousands living in the US now. It's estimated Cuba has lost 10% of it's population to people fleeing to other countries. It's not like the US doesn't have the means to take over the country at any time they wanted. They don't have to wait for enough Cubans to leave the country to do it.

I know they could take it by force. But they would prefer Cubans did it, thus giving it at least the appearance of having a resemblence of legitimacy. They also know that if they took Cuba the rest of Latin AMerica would wake up more radical than ever before. Governments all over the continent are already seeking a Chavez or Castro of their own, but if Cuba was invaded this process would completely speed up and US influence in the region would disappear for generations.

Originally Posted by Stylerod

And what freedom are you talking about? The Cuban people sure don't have the same freedoms you or I have. Or are you talking about the freedom of the government to do whatever they want to their population without worry of repercussion?

The freedom for Cuban's to govern themselves and not be a US sattelite state. They have to protect their right to health care and free education, their right to live long lifes with dignity and not as part of the empire.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

The freedom for Cuban's to govern themselves and not be a US sattelite state. They have to protect their right to health care and free education, their right to live long lifes with dignity and not as part of the empire.

What dignity are you talking about? Their master, Castro and the other elite, want their people to live a long life so they can serve the government. Not so the people are happy. What kind of dignity is it to be told what you can read, watch on TV or listen to on the radio? What about the dignity of being told you have no right to belong to whatever political group you want or to complain about laws or government actions?

Right now you are sitting at your computer talking good about another countries form of government and can also bad mouth your own. Do you think if you lived in Cuba they would give you the "dignity" to do those things?

[Joe Castro]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

What dignity are you talking about? Their master, Castro and the other elite, want their people to live a long life so they can serve the government. Not so the people are happy. What kind of dignity is it to be told what you can read, watch on TV or listen to on the radio? What about the dignity of being to