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Old 08-19-2008, 08:45 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Joe Castro View Post
There aren't Nazi's seeking to dominate Cuba, but Capitalists in Washington. It's a different enemy but the principle remains.

Restricting freedoms obviously helps. If they have freedom of movement, people like Carriles and Bosch will come back to haunt the Cuban people. The School of the Americas will find willing terrorists. Even though there is probably not even 1 in 100 who would do this, that is enough for another Bay of Pigs or another Flight 455. If they have their way the ordinary Cuban will lose all the great things the revolution has given them. Cuba's future should be determined by Cubans, not by the empire.
There is a super simple explanation to why Cuba has to restrict freedoms. As has been proven time and time again, Communism (or the bastardization of it that is practiced in the real world) is a shit form of government that no one likes except those in power. When given the choice, man will flee a Communist regime most of the time.
 
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:38 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Stylerod View Post
There is a super simple explanation to why Cuba has to restrict freedoms. As has been proven time and time again, Communism (or the bastardization of it that is practiced in the real world) is a shit form of government that no one likes except those in power. When given the choice, man will flee a Communist regime most of the time.
Well we'll see, once the US drops the aggression and the Cuban people stick with socialism.
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:41 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by WickedLou9 View Post
No it's pretty much on target. You are saying that the people of Cuba need to be opressed by thier government so that they can be free... You realize the contradiction there? If the Cuban government didn't oppress it's own people, the big bad U.S. would come in and oppress them by selling them Nikes and Coke instead.
It's not a contradiction to say some freedoms must be restricted now so as to prevent future domination. ANyway when capitalists talk about freedom they are really talking about a perverse account of what freedom means.
 
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:50 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Joe Castro View Post
It's not a contradiction to say some freedoms must be restricted now so as to prevent future domination. ANyway when capitalists talk about freedom they are really talking about a perverse account of what freedom means.
As soon as your "freedoms" become restricted or removed they are no longer freedoms. You're discussing an oxymoron as if it is a factual thing to discuss.

What you are advocating for is essentially a complete and total dominance by a totalitarian dictator restricting all rights in the nation so that they can be free from what exactly? American influence? Give me a break. The US stopped caring about Cuba a long time ago. What you're protecting is the influence of capitalism and giving the Cuban people a choice on products, foods and their way of life. These restricted "freedoms" are not there to protect these so called imaginary freedoms you keep stating. The restrictions are in place to keep complete and total control of the nation in the hands of a few. The people of Cuba are being oppressed. They deserve right to live their lives.
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:58 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Joe Castro View Post
It's not a contradiction to say some freedoms must be restricted now so as to prevent future domination. ANyway when capitalists talk about freedom they are really talking about a perverse account of what freedom means.
How would the US dominate Cuba? By giving them the freedom to choose what they want? You are saying, essentially, that the people of Cuba are like children that need to have choices made for them. Why are they incapable of deciding for themselves? are they stupid? I'm sure the answer is no.
 
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:59 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by JaJae View Post
As soon as your "freedoms" become restricted or removed they are no longer freedoms. You're discussing an oxymoron as if it is a factual thing to discuss.

What you are advocating for is essentially a complete and total dominance by a totalitarian dictator restricting all rights in the nation so that they can be free from what exactly? American influence? Give me a break. The US stopped caring about Cuba a long time ago. What you're protecting is the influence of capitalism and giving the Cuban people a choice on products, foods and their way of life. These restricted "freedoms" are not there to protect these so called imaginary freedoms you keep stating. The restrictions are in place to keep complete and total control of the nation in the hands of a few. The people of Cuba are being oppressed. They deserve right to live their lives.
You give me a break and dont insult peoples intelligence. Once the US drops the embargo and hands over the terrorists who have killed Cuban citizens then the world might actually believe the US has no interest in Cuba.

Cuba is also not run by a dictator, it is a revolutionary democracy.

And you are right, CUbans deserve the right to live their lives. That is why the revolution has increased life expectancy and wont allow the corruption of capitalism to return to the island, bringing povewrty, drug abuse, prostitution and casinos with it. The people wont ever be dominated by the US empire ever again, and the US hates that. They are hell bent on dominating everyone and Cuba shows people there is an alternative.
 
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Old 08-19-2008, 11:04 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Joe Castro View Post
ANyway when capitalists talk about freedom they are really talking about a perverse account of what freedom means.
It sure doesn't mean a government free to make every decision for their people and fobid them from leaving their country. Talk about perverse.

Face it, Communism has failed in every sense. It's a pipe dream that won't ever work. Cuba will open it's boarders one day, and the people of Cuba will finally be happy again.
 
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Old 08-19-2008, 11:06 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Joe Castro View Post
You give me a break and dont insult peoples intelligence. Once the US drops the embargo and hands over the terrorists who have killed Cuban citizens then the world might actually believe the US has no interest in Cuba.

Cuba is also not run by a dictator, it is a revolutionary democracy.

And you are right, CUbans deserve the right to live their lives. That is why the revolution has increased life expectancy and wont allow the corruption of capitalism to return to the island, bringing povewrty, drug abuse, prostitution and casinos with it. The people wont ever be dominated by the US empire ever again, and the US hates that. They are hell bent on dominating everyone and Cuba shows people there is an alternative.
Not a dictator? Fidel answers to noone. When was he elected? Who elected his brother Raul to succedd Fidel? The people didn't have any choice. Democracy? You can't be serious. Cuba is as far from democracy as you can get. You keep pointing to life expectancy as if it somehow justifies keeping a people under opression. Hey if you let me lock you in this cage, I can gaurantee you will be safe and healthy for a long time. What a joke. Capitalism has demonstrated that it has the ability to bring people out of poverty. See China for a perfect example.
Milton Friedman won a Nobel prize for his work on freemarket economcis and it's ability to bring societies up from poverty. Communism has only demonstrated that it fails when it attempts to solve the same problems.
The US is hell bent on dominating everyone? Where do you come up with this crap?
 
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Old 08-19-2008, 11:25 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Joe Castro View Post
Yes, Japan has done okay from its system, certainly the ruling class have. That is the nature of capitalism though, for every success story there are more and more in misery. For every Japan there is an Indonesia. For every CEO there is a homeless person. It requires an exploiter and an exploited to work and it is often pure chance and an accident of birth what role you will occupy. By an accident of birth dictating your futuire i mean this. A kid born in A Jakarta slum, or in the Smokey Mountain (a place that hell on earth is a kind description of) will not become a doctor or a lawyer. Of course the son of a media mogul in New York or Tokyo can become anything he wants.
Japan has done far better than Cuba and the majority of the Japanese population has benefited more from "capitalism" than socialism, just going by life expectancy. Plus they can own toasters.
Your Montaigne-esque description of capitalism is fallacious: the willingness and even eagerness to trade means that both parties benefit. As each participant values good and services differently and those difference set the scene for exchange. And, socialist societies do the same thing as capitalist ones going by your discription, just the exploiter is also the over-seeing government.
Furthermore, the idea that people born into poverty are stuck there along the lines of a caste system is just plain wrong. Some 40% of Americans born in "poverty" get out, simply through education and working.
Looking at nations that experimented with communism the poverty level for each of them went up, not a single one of these countries (N. Korea, Zimbabwe, USSR...) succeeded in reducing poverty and by comparing them to more capitalist based economies, the difference is obvious. China even acknowledges this and has opened up to more and more private capitalist ventures and look at China now, poverty has decreased.

Originally Posted by Joe Castro View Post
As for the breakthroughs of the communist party. Here you go, these are something things that would never have happened if not for their planned economy and state run scientific, agricultural and medical facilities.
Thanks for the links, however if you are seriously going to entertain the idea that the breakthroughs "never" would have happened without the Party, then you also have to accept the idea that the vast majority of medical discoveries wouldn't have happened without entrepreneurs and private companies.
 
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Old 08-19-2008, 11:38 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by WickedLou9 View Post
Not a dictator? Fidel answers to noone. When was he elected? Who elected his brother Raul to succedd Fidel? The people didn't have any choice. Democracy? You can't be serious. Cuba is as far from democracy as you can get. You keep pointing to life expectancy as if it somehow justifies keeping a people under opression. Hey if you let me lock you in this cage, I can gaurantee you will be safe and healthy for a long time. What a joke. Capitalism has demonstrated that it has the ability to bring people out of poverty. See China for a perfect example.
Milton Friedman won a Nobel prize for his work on freemarket economcis and it's ability to bring societies up from poverty. Communism has only demonstrated that it fails when it attempts to solve the same problems.
The US is hell bent on dominating everyone? Where do you come up with this crap?

The US is the biggest threat to the people of the world since Nazi Germany. Do you really want me to list off all the interventions they have made around the globe ? All the time they get rid of governments and put in their own puppet regimes.

Chomsky was right when he said if the Nuremburg principles were applied every post war US president would have been hanged.

Go tell the people living in the slums in Chile how great Friedman is. His economics destroyed their lives - which are now only beginning to recover.

People who say the USSR is proof that communism doesn't work ought to then accept that Indonesia is proof that capitalism doesn't work. It's no surprise the hypocrites never do.

I am not even a communist but give me Marxist Leninism anytime before this "economic order.... that is killing of hunger and preventable or curable diseases more men, women and children every three years than all those killed by World War II in six years."

As for who elected the Castro's - that would be the Council of State who in turn were elected by the Assembly of National People's Power. They themselves are elected by the people.

The fact that Americans and Brits are so pompous as to think they can tell people about democracy is baffling. The US can have a President appointed by the Supreme Court and Britain a PM elected with only 30% of the vote. That itself is no democracy, but we are so up our own backsides we would rather dictate to other peoples than sort out our own shambolic systems.
 
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Old 08-19-2008, 01:36 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Joe Castro View Post
The US is the biggest threat to the people of the world since Nazi Germany. Do you really want me to list off all the interventions they have made around the globe ? All the time they get rid of governments and put in their own puppet regimes.

Chomsky was right when he said if the Nuremburg principles were applied every post war US president would have been hanged.

Go tell the people living in the slums in Chile how great Friedman is. His economics destroyed their lives - which are now only beginning to recover.

People who say the USSR is proof that communism doesn't work ought to then accept that Indonesia is proof that capitalism doesn't work. It's no surprise the hypocrites never do.

I am not even a communist but give me Marxist Leninism anytime before this "economic order.... that is killing of hunger and preventable or curable diseases more men, women and children every three years than all those killed by World War II in six years."

As for who elected the Castro's - that would be the Council of State who in turn were elected by the Assembly of National People's Power. They themselves are elected by the people.

The fact that Americans and Brits are so pompous as to think they can tell people about democracy is baffling. The US can have a President appointed by the Supreme Court and Britain a PM elected with only 30% of the vote. That itself is no democracy, but we are so up our own backsides we would rather dictate to other peoples than sort out our own shambolic systems.
If you're that paranoid about the US then why would you think Cuba would be safe? History has shown that the US gets involved with countries that have poor human rights and high oppression. Also, if the US was going to do something about Cuba they would have done it by now. I can't remember the last time I heard a politician discussing Cuba. Politicians in the US don't care what happens to that island (which is part of the problem).
 
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Old 08-19-2008, 02:00 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by JaJae View Post
I can't remember the last time I heard a politician discussing Cuba. Politicians in the US don't care what happens to that island (which is part of the problem).
You can't have been listening then.

George Bush calls on Cuba to overthrow Fidel Castro's regime - Times Online

McCain Warns Against Spread of Socialism

granma.cu - Reflections of Fidel
 
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Old 08-19-2008, 02:46 PM   #73
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These are not big stories. One of them is from last year and another is from "granma"? Never even heard of that website. You're really making a mountain out of a mole hill to support some anti-capitalist, pro-Cuban agenda.

And I'm not saying no politician has discussed Cuba, but it's extremely rare and it's never a major issue. The most I heard about it was when Fidel was sick and the media was harping on his health and human rights. But that's really it.
 
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Old 08-19-2008, 03:54 PM   #74
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I will say this, I look at both Churchill and Castro as evil empire builders.



What say you now Joe Castro?
 
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Old 08-19-2008, 03:58 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Joe Castro View Post
The US is the biggest threat to the people of the world since Nazi Germany. Do you really want me to list off all the interventions they have made around the globe ? All the time they get rid of governments and put in their own puppet regimes.

Chomsky was right when he said if the Nuremburg principles were applied every post war US president would have been hanged.

Go tell the people living in the slums in Chile how great Friedman is. His economics destroyed their lives - which are now only beginning to recover.

People who say the USSR is proof that communism doesn't work ought to then accept that Indonesia is proof that capitalism doesn't work. It's no surprise the hypocrites never do.

I am not even a communist but give me Marxist Leninism anytime before this "economic order.... that is killing of hunger and preventable or curable diseases more men, women and children every three years than all those killed by World War II in six years."

As most Marxists do, you confuse free market capitalism with American mercantilism / protectionism / corporatism / socialism.

And we don't look at the USSR as proof that communism doesn't work. We look at EVERY single country that has adopted Marxist economics and we see that 100% of them have failed.
 
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Old 08-19-2008, 04:04 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Joe Castro View Post
I already have, numerous times. I can't help it if you do not have the caqpacity to understand this.

Cuba does not need to allow them back in for them to commit acts of terror and treason. I assume you do not need a history lesson, but they didn't allow anyone in at The Bay of Pigs.
And nothing in castro's policies now is preventing another Bay of Pigs.

Hey, you can continue to ignore the question if you want but it's interesting that you can't answer it. He wants to know why people aren't allowed to leave. Why can't you answer that question with something other than
-because they'll come back as terrorists (which leads to another question, "why, if it's such a utopia, would they leave and come back as terrorists?")

or

-an attack on the person who asked?
Why is that?
 
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Old 08-19-2008, 04:14 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Joe Castro View Post
I will substitute the answers below.

Q: If Cuba is so great why do they lock them in?
A: So they can win the war to ensure long term freedom from an aggressive empire, an empire that seeks to dominate them. As i have sai earlier this eerily resembles WW2 UK. An evil empire chapping at the door, freedoms are curbed to prevent that empires victory. Like the UK took control of the media and illegalised supporting the enmy, Cuba has done the same. Yet we idolise Churchill and call Castro a villain.
but at the same time a UK citizen could have left and gone to spain or canada or many south american countries while currently cubans are allowed to go.............where?

castro isn't keeping them from going to the US, he's keeping them from leaving PERIOD.

Q: What freedoms does Cuba have?
A: The freedom not to be dominated by the empire. The freedom to live long and healthy lifes. The freedom and right to a free and world class education. These are massive things that no other country of similar wealth have.
This is entirely a bullshit answer. He's asking what freedoms the people have when their leader has them imprisoned in their country and your answer is they're free to not be dominated by another country? They don't even get that choice so your "freedom from the empire ™" answer is utter crap.

Q: Huh? You realize in Cuba you wouldn't even be able to have this conversion.
A: That wasn't wuite what was asked. I was told i criticise my government and in Cuba i couldn't do that. All i said was if i was in Cuba i wouldn't want to criticise the government. I would be seeking to join them and singing their achievements from the rooftops.
How do you know if you've never been there?

The logic is quite simple really. Churchill set a precedent which Cuba has followed. The only people who cant see the simple logic are victims of the swamp of false conciousness in which they wallow. I do not blame them, i would never blame a victim and that is what they are. They are victims of ideological state and private apparatus'.
Nope, the only people who can't see it are the ones that (for some reason) *have* to believe it. It might be ideological, it might be ignorance, it might be some glorified thing they read in a book.......I'll wait for you to move there before believing you really have any idea what you're talking about.
 
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Old 08-19-2008, 04:23 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Joe Castro View Post
It would be easy to find a full shelf and then find the very worst store for the public, or to find that store in a bad day.
I'm not even going to bother for the rest of this, but this one... you do know that in the US we don't have 'bad days' for our grocery stores, right?
 
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Old 08-19-2008, 04:28 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by thewise1 View Post
I'm not even going to bother for the rest of this, but this one... you do know that in the US we don't have 'bad days' for our grocery stores, right?
And if any store did have a "bad day", consumers are FREE to choose another store that better suits thier needs.
 
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Old 08-19-2008, 04:30 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Joe Castro View Post
Go tell the people living in the slums in Chile how great Friedman is. His economics destroyed their lives - which are now only beginning to recover.
what?


Chile (blue) and average South America (orange) GDP per Capita (1945-2003).

For the most part they've been doing better than their neighbors. His economics didn't destroy their lives, it gave them the opportunity to better themselves....opportunities their neighbors didn't have.
 
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