Happy Birthday Fidel - Page 5

7960 · 08-19-2008, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

I'm not even going to bother for the rest of this, but this one... you do know that in the US we don't have 'bad days' for our grocery stores, right?

a canadian friend took a biking tour of cuba 2 or 3 years ago. He said the country is beautiful but people, stores, "cities"......for the most part they're 3rd world. He wrote up a newsletter-style email. I asked him if I could post it here. It has pictures and stories and shit............I hope he says yes.

Stylerod · 08-19-2008, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

what?

Chile (blue) and average South America (orange) GDP per Capita (1945-2003).

For the most part they've been doing better than their neighbors. His economics didn't destroy their lives, it gave them the opportunity to better themselves....opportunities their neighbors didn't have.

Woops!

motivez · 08-19-2008, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Woops!

Silly facts, how dare they enter the thread!

motivez · 08-19-2008, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

a canadian friend took a biking tour of cuba 2 or 3 years ago. He said the country is beautiful but people, stores, "cities"......for the most part they're 3rd world. He wrote up a newsletter-style email. I asked him if I could post it here. It has pictures and stories and shit............I hope he says yes.

What's sad is that when big shots visit Cuba, ie: American actors, Castro provides them with everything he's unwilling to give the Cuban citizens he oppresses

Luxurious hotels, the best in the country.. gourmet banquets with an amount of food no ration card given to any ordinary Cuban would be able to obtain, never having to wait in lines for simple food stuffs, he puts on a huge show at the expense of the quality of life of the Cuban people..

It's utterly ridiculous that the Cuban people are FORBIDDEN from staying at those hotels.. when they're the ones paying for it.

It's easy for someone who's been brought up in a non-Communist country to look at the things wrong with our style of society to point and criticize and imagine the kind of utopia Communism promises as having to be better than what we have now.. but that's just not reality. That's idealism.

All someone has to do is ask anyone who's grown up under that society that wasn't a member of the ruling elite, but rather a common, ordinary cog in in the machine.. and they'll tell you how horrible it was and how glad they are to be free of that system now.

That's why thousands of Cubans try to flee their country.. not because they've bought into any propaganda, but because they can't stand it. They are sick of being oppressed, not being able to live their own lives, and want better ones.. and know they'll have the opportunity to have it elsewhere.

And, Joe, it's very telling that you have no answer for why Castro wont let his people leave.

If his system was so great, people would decide for themselves to stay without any kind of intimidation or force involved.. He could of course limit immigration to prevent any kind of upheaval caused by those who have left, refuse them re-entry, and so forth.. but you are smart enough to know that's obviously not even close to the real reason.

If his system was so great, he would not need to prevent people with intimidation and threat of punishment from speaking their mind about the system. Maybe some smart people out there have ideas on how to improve it, why is he afraid of them?

If his system was so great, he would allow truly free elections, rather than keeping the power and money under his control.. why is he afraid to let some other person loyal to Cuba run the show and return to the type of life he forces on the rest of his non ruling class? ..This is probably the most transparent reason that your line of reasoning is bullshit..

You also haven't really given any answers as to why the restriction of freedom is necessary to secure it.. because it doesn't make any sense.

You rail against some mythical "domination by the empire" .. but seemingly have no problem with "domination by the empire" .. so long as it's a local empire, ie: Castro's dictatorship.

You can't even argue that it's not domination, because it is the text book definition.

Can you not see the hypocrisy there? The massive, glaring pimple of contradiction on the nose of your reasoning?

Joe Castro · 08-19-2008, 09:46 PM

I've given a perfectly good reason. It's not my fault you are all soaking in a swamp of false conciousness.

And your thing about people who've lived under communism is so false. I am in quite regular contact with a couple of members of the Russian Communist Party. One is in the Russian Army and so is hardly a member of the so called ruling elite. The fact that the lowest vote they have ever had is around 25%, its pretty safe to say they werent all members of such a group. There was also a member on another forum i used to post on, he was brought up in the Soviet Union and wishes to see its return. Go ask the people of Belarus. If they could have a vote they would re-join the Soviet Union in a shot.

And there is no domination. Cuba is a revolutionary democracy. If you want to have your voice heard go to local meetings, vote, join the communist party.

Joe Castro · 08-19-2008, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

Silly facts, how dare they enter the thread!

You want facts. Here are facts. Go to the link look at the table. You will see average wages plummet and the minimum wage almost cut in half. Yopu will see the incredible wealth disparity. But hey capitalists only care about economic growth, not how that growth is built or distributed.

Chile's erratic economy and ultimately slow growth are not the worst legacy of the Chicago boys. The standard of living for workers crumbled under the Pinochet regime. In fact, this is a truly horrific part of the story.

By all measures, the average worker was worse off in 1989 than in 1970. During this period, labor's share of the national income fell from 52.3 to 30.7 percent. (17) Even during the second boom (1984-89), wages continued to fall. The following index shows the decline in both average and minimum wages:
Evolution of real wages, revised index, 1980-87 (in percent) (18)YearAverage WageMinimum Wage198095.0%97.71981105.0102.31982110.3101.219839 1.179.3198486.569.5198580.064.7198681.560.3198781. 255.5

Meanwhile, the wealthy were raking it in. The following chart shows how the richest 20 percent of society enlarged their share of the pie at the everyone else's expense. (Note: the "first quintile" represents the poorest 20 percent of society, the "fifth quintile" the richest 20 percent. The percentage numbers here represent the share of national goods consumed by that quintile.)
Consumption by Household Quintiles (percent distribution) (22)Quintile197019801989First (poorest)7.6%5.24.4Second11.89.38.2Third15.613.612 .7Fourth20.520.920.1Fifth (richest)44.551.054.6

Chile: the laboratory test

You can say GDP grew all you want, but that is irrelevant if only a tiny amount of people recieve the benefits of that. You can only judge a society by its poorest citizens.

7960 · 08-19-2008, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

You can only judge a society by its poorest citizens.

you say that and yet you still idolize cuba

Joe Castro · 08-19-2008, 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

you say that and yet you still idolize cuba

That is WHY i "idolize" Cuba.

7960 · 08-20-2008, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

That is WHY i "idolize" Cuba.

that is why I am embarrassed for you.

WickedLou9 · 08-20-2008, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

That is WHY i "idolize" Cuba.

Everyone is equally poor! Horray!
I see your Cuba and raise you Japan. How do you explain Japan?

Joe Castro · 08-21-2008, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Everyone is equally poor! Horray!
I see your Cuba and raise you Japan. How do you explain Japan?

Been there, done that. The nature of Capitalism requires an exploiter and an exploited. The Japanese are by and large exploiters.

Angus_Aboot · 08-21-2008, 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Been there, done that. The nature of Capitalism requires an exploiter and an exploited. The Japanese are by and large exploiters.

Wow, an entire island of exploiters! How did the Japanese manage that then?

7960 · 08-21-2008, 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Been there, done that. The nature of Capitalism requires an exploiter and an exploited.

at least in capitalism a person gets the chance to choose which he wants to be. in a communist state like cuba everyone gets one "choice" ........ exploited.

Angus_Aboot · 08-21-2008, 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by 7960

at least in capitalism a person gets the chance to choose which he wants to be. in a communist state like cuba everyone gets one "choice" ........ exploited.

You've got it all wrong man, they're not exploited in Cuba, they're liberated. Just like how their oppression actually preserves their freedom...it's a revolutionary system.

motivez · 08-21-2008, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Been there, done that. The nature of Capitalism requires an exploiter and an exploited. The Japanese are by and large exploiters.

How does it require an exploited?

In capitalism, people make the decision for themselves to purchase a product, work for a company, and so forth. No one is forcing them, so you can't call it exploitation.

The nature of Communism requires exploitation, though. People are not given a choice to participate in the system.

WickedLou9 · 08-21-2008, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

Been there, done that. The nature of Capitalism requires an exploiter and an exploited. The Japanese are by and large exploiters.

The famous pie analogy. If one person gets more pie, another person gets less. That's the beauty of a democratic capitalistic system, the pie can get bigger. It's not a zero sum game.

Joe Castro · 08-21-2008, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by motivez

How does it require an exploited?

In capitalism, people make the decision for themselves to purchase a product, work for a company, and so forth. No one is forcing them, so you can't call it exploitation.

The nature of Communism requires exploitation, though. People are not given a choice to participate in the system.

There are the capitalists and then there are the workers who own nothing but their labor. Workers are coerced into exploitation and wage slavery. Either create wealth for a capitalist or die. The only freedom that exists is for the capitalists extract the value of their labor.

7960 · 08-21-2008, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

There are the capitalists and then there are the workers who own nothing but their labor. Workers are coerced into exploitation and wage slavery. Either create wealth for a capitalist or die. The only freedom that exists is for the capitalists extract the value of their labor.

and in a capitalist system I get to choose if i want to be a worker or if I want to be a capitalist. in your communist system they don't get that choice.

funny that you'd say capitalism is bad because some end up as laborers (and some end up as capitalists) when in the system you revere EVERYONE is a laborer for the state.

if "laborer" is bad shouldn't the system that creates more of them be more bad?

WickedLou9 · 08-21-2008, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Joe Castro

There are the capitalists and then there are the workers who own nothing but their labor. Workers are coerced into exploitation and wage slavery. Either create wealth for a capitalist or die. The only freedom that exists is for the capitalists extract the value of their labor.

Workers are not forced into anything. They reach an agreement. They have a service to offer and they can look around and find an agreement that they are willing to accept. If they don't like any of the offers that they get they can start thier own business. There are a plethora of "self-employed" people in this country that work for themselves.