Is this right? - Page 3

SpicyMcVoodoo · 09-25-2006, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

I've never once complained about any kids learning about religion at any age, whether it be a religion I agree with or not. Not a single word.

Precisely. In fact, you even went a step further. You claimed that 14 year olds are capable enough to evaluate religion and whether it's for them. You didn't include any evidence of this, and actually, your claim is contrary to every other one of our society's laws which recognize kids are too stupid to make any important decisions, and that adults have undue influence over kids.

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

I like how you use that word 'ensnare' though. As if they're being hunted and trapped...

Yeah, it's all fun and games because in this instance the religion is xianity, which you apparently think can do no wrong, no matter how crazy the teacher or how young the student.

Type in "cult minors" into google and see what you get. There are shitloads of instances of cults recruiting minors. So once again, I'll say you'd change your tune if it was your 14 year old kid joining a cult you didn't like.

ballz2wallz · 09-25-2006, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Precisely. In fact, you even went a step further. You claimed that 14 year olds are capable enough to evaluate religion and whether it's for them. You didn't include any evidence of this, and actually, your claim is contrary to every other one of our society's laws which recognize kids are too stupid to make any important decisions, and that adults have undue influence over kids.

Religion is not some crazy thing you have to be brilliant to understand or accept. Nor do you have to have a certain level of maturity to grasp it or understand it's meaning. You merely have to understand the difference of right and wrong, moral and immoral, etc. Even a 5 yr old understands the difference of right and wrong.

I know, I know, you're going to bring up 'what's right/wrong with one person may not be right/wrong with another'. Before you say that, notice I never specify what right and wrong is.

Yeah, it's all fun and games because in this instance the religion is xianity, which you apparently think can do no wrong, no matter how crazy the teacher or how young the student.

Even I admit that Christianity in the wrong hands can be wrong. There are too many examples for me to be so stupid.

Type in "cult minors" into google and see what you get. There are shitloads of instances of cults recruiting minors. So once again, I'll say you'd change your tune if it was your 14 year old kid joining a cult you didn't like.

You're wrong, because I'm already fully aware that it happens every day, but because we live in the country we do, they are free to do so...even 14 yr olds.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 09-25-2006, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Even a 5 yr old understands the difference of right and wrong.

Really, so if a five year old was recruited into a cult which promotes sex with older men, which a lot seem to do, you think the 5 year old, after continuous brainwashing from adults in positions of authority, would know it's wrong? You think even a 14 year old would know that's wrong? This is not some wacky scenario...it happens time and time again, and I've never once, ever, heard the argument that the underage child should've known it was wrong, so there's no problem.

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Even I admit that Christianity in the wrong hands can be wrong. There are too many examples for me to be so stupid.

And yet, in a way, you are being so stupid, because you've cavalierly declared that all underaged children are capable of filtering harmful xianity from good, and so there is no reason to be concerned if harmful xians set out to recruit children.

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

You're wrong, because I'm already fully aware that it happens every day, but because we live in the country we do, they are free to do so...even 14 yr olds.

That's not really true. You're not free in this country to recruit kids into harmful cults. There are legal protections against it, although it's a clusterfuck having to take into account the 1st amendment. Here's some light reading:

Litigating Child Custody with Religious Cults

ballz2wallz · 09-25-2006, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Really, so if a five year old was recruited into a cult which promotes sex with older men, which a lot seem to do, you think the 5 year old, after continuous brainwashing from adults in positions of authority, would know it's wrong? You think even a 14 year old would know that's wrong? This is not some wacky scenario...it happens time and time again, and I've never once, ever, heard the argument that the underage child should've known it was wrong, so there's no problem.

You're right, but you know damn well that's hardly the 'right and wrong' I was talking about when mentioning a 5 yr old. And yes, I think 14 yr olds know by now what's goin on in that whacky scenario.

And yet, in a way, you are being so stupid, because you've cavalierly declared that all underaged children are capable of filtering harmful xianity from good, and so there is no reason to be concerned if harmful xians set out to recruit children.

The OP tells you what her mom is teaching these kids. Does that seem harmful to you?

That's not really true. You're not free in this country to recruit kids into harmful cults. There are legal protections against it, although it's a clusterfuck having to take into account the 1st amendment. Here's some light reading:

Litigating Child Custody with Religious Cults

It's obvious I don't know enough about the laws and cults; even more proof that I don't say much regarding other religions I don't agree with.

IminWonderland · 09-25-2006, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

You're right, but you know damn well that's hardly the 'right and wrong' I was talking about when mentioning a 5 yr old. And yes, I think 14 yr olds know by now what's goin on in that whacky scenario.

The OP tells you what her mom is teaching these kids. Does that seem harmful to you?

It's obvious I don't know enough about the laws and cults; even more proof that I don't say much regarding other religions I don't agree with.

Orly? You have no idea what my Mom believes. Did you know that my Mom took away a dinosaur toy from my nephew, and told him that they never existed because God didn't create them?

Telling them that they will suffer eternal damnation if they don't get right with God?

She believes that God literally TALKS to her. That's not religion. That's mentally unsound.

I'm not bashing on having a faith in a higher power, but there is something to be said about people who believe their truth, is the only truth, and everyone else needs to conform to their truth.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 09-25-2006, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

You're right, but you know damn well that's hardly the 'right and wrong' I was talking about when mentioning a 5 yr old.

Point remains, there are plenty of things a cult would likely tell even a 5 year old that he wouldn't know are right are wrong. What if they tell him it's right to trust the cult, not his parents, because his family is evil? What if they tell him it's right to carry a bomb into a market? What if they tell him it's right to hate all Jews because they killed Jesus? Etc, etc, etc...these are all things that are commonly told to very young kids all over the world, and you claim they'll know they're wrong.

You dismissed the relativity of good/evil, saying religion is not some science that people need to figure out...but that's exactly the problem...it is extremely complicated, and all sorts of religions teach things that society and you think are wrong, and plenty of adults, let alone children, aren't always equipped to deal with it.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 09-25-2006, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

The OP tells you what her mom is teaching these kids. Does that seem harmful to you?

She hasn't really gone into the specifics of what her mom is teaching, but she has made it clear her mother may literally be insane. Do I think an insane woman could harm the minds of children? Yes, of course I do. And furthermore, even if she wasn't insane, I think even telling kids they're going to hell, they're sinners, etc., can be extremely stressful and traumatizing if taken to the extreme.

IminWonderland · 09-26-2006, 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

She hasn't really gone into the specifics of what her mom is teaching, but she has made it clear her mother may literally be insane. Do I think an insane woman could harm the minds of children? Yes, of course I do. And furthermore, even if she wasn't insane, I think even telling kids they're going to hell, they're sinners, etc., can be extremely stressful and traumatizing if taken to the extreme.

She could be classified as insane. She's got Bipolar Disorder. She is totally nuts. And she's gotten worse since she got "saved".

Mental Illness and religion don't mix.

Holly · 09-26-2006, 01:02 AM

Does she belong to a church out there? Is she doing this youth ministry through the church?

If i was a parent and my child just started going over to some random persons house for bible study, and she wasnt offically doing it through a church, id be very concerned.

If she was actually chosen by the pastor of the church to be a youth leader, i dont see anything wrong with that because in most cases she will have had to have enough experience to be able to teach young minds, and will have authority over her if something wasnt right ><

If shes not going by any special guidelines when she teaches these kids then it can very easily lead to her teaching something completely different than what these kids think they are being taught. If that makes sense? I guess moreso interpreting things according to her own opinion, rather than that of the church itself, stuff like that.

IminWonderland · 09-26-2006, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by Holly

Does she belong to a church out there? Is she doing this youth ministry through the church?

If i was a parent and my child just started going over to some random persons house for bible study, and she wasnt offically doing it through a church, id be very concerned.

If she was actually chosen by the pastor of the church to be a youth leader, i dont see anything wrong with that because in most cases she will have had to have enough experience to be able to teach young minds, and will have authority over her if something wasnt right ><

If shes not going by any special guidelines when she teaches these kids then it can very easily lead to her teaching something completely different than what these kids think they are being taught. If that makes sense? I guess moreso interpreting things according to her own opinion, rather than that of the church itself, stuff like that.

Well, she does belong to a church. But, coming from where she used to live, and going to Calvary Chapel, and other very evangical and very extreme church's, where she moved, they don't have church's like that there. So she started going to a Methodist church, and she volunteered to be a Youth Minister. Ever since she did that, she said that God wanted her to move there, because he wants her to convert the Youth of her town, and the evangelizing from the home, is something that she just decided to do, it wasn't like, church sanctioned. She has told me, that several people, who I guess hold "office" in the church, wanted to remove her from the church because people in the church were concerned about her spending so much time with these kids.

The thing is, is that my Mom's opinion, is starkly more extreme than the actual church's.

My Mom has a personality, partly because of her Bipolarity, that she is VERY VERY hard to get along with, if you have any kind of sense at all, because the things that come out of her, are soooooo insane sometimes. And for her to have these kids, and the kids not living somewhere where they are exposed to all that's out there, she has a personality, that if you don't really listen or critically think about what she is saying, she can be very manipulative. I think that she's using these kids to fill a void she has because she has no friends, and no family. And she's using Jesus as a means to manipulate them to hang out with her.

ballz2wallz · 09-26-2006, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

The thing is, is that my Mom's opinion, is starkly more extreme than the actual church's.

Yeah Methodists aren't known to be 'evangelicals'. Methodists are very liberal compared to many other churches.

IminWonderland · 09-26-2006, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Yeah Methodists aren't known to be 'evangelicals'. Methodists are very liberal compared to many other churches.

Oh yeah, I know! They are the church that welcomes everybody...

But, the church's she came from, they are so extreme, that Anthropologists have studied them because they are a breeding movement.

You know Rick Warren? A Purpose Driven Life? His old church is one of the cadillac mega church's in the OC. The Harvest Crusade? They rent out Angel Stadium, and do mass conversion. The pastor of Harvest Crusade, my Mom used to listen to him preach. I mean, these people, and I know first hand becuase I went to their services with her, and they are very extreme. They don't have that where she lives. But she was telling me that she wants to bring that to them. She said that they don't know the word like "we do in OC".

ballz2wallz · 09-26-2006, 11:41 AM

Yeah I know Rick Warren. He's a good guy.

IminWonderland · 09-26-2006, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Yeah I know Rick Warren. He's a good guy.

He's a total good guy. And he's got a very positive message.

People where I live have taken that message, and severely warped it in church's here. Mega Churches may be big in the Bible Belt....but that all started in California...

Kytro · 09-29-2006, 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Do you have a problem with people practicing religion?

In general, no. Depends what the practice entails

Phantom · 09-29-2006, 02:45 PM

If this were the worst things my kids were getting into, I wouldn't mind it too much.

Religion is usually lost just as easily as it is found. If the parents want to indoctrinate their kids in another manner, they surely have a greater opportunity to do so.

I see no problem

motivez · 10-02-2006, 02:23 PM

I think it's every parents right to teach their child their own beliefs, whether it be religious, or not.. that's part of being a parent. Bringing up the child in a way you see fit.

As long as it's within the law, it doesn't really matter whether or not society approves IMO.

But, I do see some of the stuff as doing harm. I agree with Bill Maher when he talks about how the sooner we get beyond religion being something that majorly influences our society.. the better off we're going to be.

Spirituality should be a personal thing, and we should base our society around rational thought, rather than irrational belief and faith in one thing or another, especially since so many people have different interpretations of this passage or that one..