So what happens if bin Laden is dead? - Page 3

DosEquis · 09-25-2006, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Who is taking credit for his death???

All we are saying is, if he is dead. It's a good thing. But some people have a hard time saying that without putting a "but.." or an "except for...".

Why not say, "Boy, I sure hope he is dead. The world is a better place without him." and leave it at that?

Isn't this almost as good as going in and assassinating him with our soldiers; setting it up so that he's unable to live in hiding? I think if he really is confirmed dead that the US will be held a bit higher

This implies that we would take some credit in his death saying our policy forces him to live in hiding and the hiding ultimately resulting in his death. Then if he is confirmed dead we will look a bit better by it.

I do not think this is the case at all. If anything, those who are interested in following the path of terrorism will look at it as a success for OBL. The americans failed to find him through the end of his days. He was able to hide from the powerful and great united states and carry out most of his plans...etc.

Stylerod · 09-25-2006, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by DosEquis

This implies that we would take some credit in his death saying our policy forces him to live in hiding and the hiding ultimately resulting in his death. Then if he is confirmed dead we will look a bit better by it.

I do not think this is the case at all. If anything, those who are interested in following the path of terrorism will look at it as a success for OBL. The americans failed to find him through the end of his days. He was able to hide from the powerful and great united states and carry out most of his plans...etc.

Well that is where we disagree. I think if anything at all, we kept him in hiding meaning he really didn't have control of anything. He couldn't hold public rally's, or go on Al Jezera and preach for his cause. He was made an ineffective leader because he couldn't pop his head above ground without it getting shot off.

I could give two shits how he died, as long as he is dead. Him and Arafat can burn in hell together.

motivez · 09-25-2006, 01:52 PM

It still has nothing to do with my post. We have it on record that he was alive after the death of Zarqawi, and was corresponding with him over certain aspects of Al Qaeda in Iraq, which he needed Osama's blessing to change the name to.

Your articles are from 2003 and 2004.. and aren't about the tape we're talking about.

Bottom line is there's proof, and I've provided it. You can think whatever you want, but there's really no credible evidence proving that it's not Osama's voice, while there is credible evidence that proves it is.

JaJae · 09-25-2006, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

It still has nothing to do with my post. We have it on record that he was alive after the death of Zarqawi, and was corresponding with him over certain aspects of Al Qaeda in Iraq, which he needed Osama's blessing to change the name to.

Your articles are from 2003 and 2004.. and aren't about the tape we're talking about.

Bottom line is there's proof, and I've provided it. You can think whatever you want, but there's really no credible evidence proving that it's not Osama's voice, while there is credible evidence that proves it is.

No, what you have is a tape after a couple years of silence with a voice that experts dispute and can't prove to be Osama.

The other side has military intelligence reports saying they've witnessed funerals for the man and reports of his death. Again can't prove either side.

The recording that was given was lesser quality than a telephone. Many recordings in the past that claimed to be Osama current were proven to have been taped years prior and falsified. Putting your all your eggs on the line for a single recording (before current intelligence reports that he is dead) doesn't prove that he's alive. And it certaintly doesn't give either side ammunition to use ad hominems or sarcasm.

It certaintly isn't proof by any sense of the word in criminal or legal justification. That recording is nowhere near enough evidence to provide fact that he is alive. If this is what you call proof, then there's an equal amount of "proof" showing he's dead. In fact there have been more disputed reports of his death over the past two years than one audio recording that's now out of date with current Saudi and French intelligence.

motivez · 09-25-2006, 02:20 PM

You're referring to a different tape than I am. Your links are from 2003, and 2004. Mine is from 2006. Neither of your links discuss this evidence.

Different tape, different years. Not sure what you're not getting about that.

Secondly, the Saudi's just came out and said there's no evidence to suggest he's dead. That almost entirely debunks this report since the French report ( the sole source of information ) was based on Saudi intelligence.

JaJae · 09-25-2006, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

You're referring to a different tape than I am. Your links are from 2003, and 2004. Mine is from 2006. Neither of your links discuss this evidence.

Different tape, different years. Not sure what you're not getting about that.

Secondly, the Saudi's just came out and said there's no evidence to suggest he's dead. That almost entirely debunks this report since the French report ( the sole source of information ) was based on Saudi intelligence.

The tape was from this summer.. when Zarkawi died. You said it yourself. There are recent reports that bin Laden may have recently passed away. That recording with Zarkawi is being disputed as being his son. Many believed he died back in 2004 which is why we haven't heard anything and the Zarkawi tape was a cover to give people hope that he's alive.

However, that audio recording was very poor quality and many experts believe it wasn't even Osama's voice on the tape. And now there are recent accounts that he may have died. We're talking about the same tape, nobody is confused here. There's only been one tape to show any kind of hope that Osama is alive for the past two years...

motivez · 09-25-2006, 02:32 PM

Once again, your links are from 2003 [ Secular Blasphemy -- dated March 9th, 2003 ] and 2004 [ The Voice of Osama bin Laden -- Dated January 23, 2004 ].

The tape I'm referring to was dated to June 29th of this year, 2006. You've yet to provide any evidence about this specific tape. You've claimed they're the same tape, but neither of those pages you linked mention Zarqawi, which is interesting since in the tape I'm referring to -- he was eulogised by Osama.

You'd think that'd at least merit a mention, but I guess since when those articles were printed, again, in 2003 and 2004, he hadn't died yet, and the tape hadn't been released yet.. so.. I guess it's kind of hard for them to write articles about the future?

If you have any evidence about this specific tape that I'm referring to, again, I'd like to see it. So far though, you've provided none.

Stylerod · 09-25-2006, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

Secondly, the Saudi's just came out and said there's no evidence to suggest he's dead. That almost entirely debunks this report since the French report ( the sole source of information ) was based on Saudi intelligence.

If the information was gained from "leaked" Saudi intellegence, wouldn't it seem to make sense that the Saudi's would say it wasn't true? It was a secret. Someone saw the secret (alleged) and leaked it. Just because it came out you think they will just say "Ok, you got us. Yeah, he's dead." If they had reasons for keeping it a secret, I'm guessing they still want it to be a secret.

motivez · 09-25-2006, 03:53 PM

Why would they deny the report? They have no special love for Osama.

I'm guessing the reason it was secret is the reason most intelligence is kept a secret, because it's intelligence, and if everyone knows about it, well, there's no longer the "leg up" value.

In any case, the credibility of the information is in serious doubt, and with evidence of him being alive in June of this year, I'll wait to see some proof.

I think Al Qaeda would want to organize some type of event to honor him as a martyr etc if he was really dead, call for new attacks, etc. Hasn't it been the conventional wisdom that he's more valuable to them dead, as a martyr, than he is alive since we've "contained" his ability to do much of the operational stuff?

Stylerod · 09-25-2006, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

Why would they deny the report? They have no special love for Osama.

I'm guessing the reason it was secret is the reason most intelligence is kept a secret, because it's intelligence, and if everyone knows about it, well, there's no longer the "leg up" value.

In any case, the credibility of the information is in serious doubt, and with evidence of him being alive in June of this year, I'll wait to see some proof.

I think Al Qaeda would want to organize some type of event to honor him as a martyr etc if he was really dead, call for new attacks, etc. Hasn't it been the conventional wisdom that he's more valuable to them dead, as a martyr, than he is alive since we've "contained" his ability to do much of the operational stuff?

I think it's better to keep everyone guessing and not give his followers the satisfaction of knowing one way or another.

Diamond Cross · 09-25-2006, 05:25 PM

There's only one thing that will settle this.

Where's the body?

Tapes and videos can be disputed by exxperts.

A good example of what I'm trying to say is the famous PAtterson film, the one with What is claimed to be bigfoot. No expert can agree on if ti's a fake or not.

We have the same thing here.

So therefore, we need a body.

ballz2wallz · 09-25-2006, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by Diamond Cross

There's only one thing that will settle this.

Where's the body?

Tapes and videos can be disputed by exxperts.

A good example of what I'm trying to say is the famous PAtterson film, the one with What is claimed to be bigfoot. No expert can agree on if ti's a fake or not.

We have the same thing here.

So therefore, we need a body.

Buried?

JaJae · 09-25-2006, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by Diamond Cross

There's only one thing that will settle this.

Where's the body?

Tapes and videos can be disputed by exxperts.

A good example of what I'm trying to say is the famous PAtterson film, the one with What is claimed to be bigfoot. No expert can agree on if ti's a fake or not.

We have the same thing here.

So therefore, we need a body.

There are reports that it has been buried already, on more than one occassion. Nobody really knows.