How can people say the bush tax cuts were unfair?

I've never understood this argument...

The upper 20% are now paying a higher % of the total tax bill.

Those at the bottom are paying less both in real dollars and as a %. So how are these taxcuts unfair? I am not seeing any way that they are unfair.



The Tax Foundation - Comparing the Kennedy, Reagan and Bush Tax Cuts

Everybody got tax cuts that paid taxes.

[Thorgrim]

From 93-2000 the rich were doing just fine...when we built a surplus there was no reason to rush out their and give them tax cuts, when you are making 500,000 a year in America you do not need a big check from the government to buy your daughter her 3rd BMW when we should have been focused on paying off the debt

However, those in the lower income range, their tax breaks were so paltry...I am not talking about the poor who don't pay taxes, I am talking about the lower-middle class that pay their share of taxes but still struggle

what did they get? maybe enough to buy a new muffler they needed to get to work, and still not enough to pay for rising health costs, college tuition soaring, etc

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

From 93-2000 the rich were doing just fine...when we built a surplus there was no reason to rush out their and give them tax cuts, when you are making 500,000 a year in America you do not need a big check from the government to buy your daughter her 3rd BMW when we should have been focused on paying off the debt

However, those in the lower income range, their tax breaks were so paltry...I am not talking about the poor who don't pay taxes, I am talking about the lower-middle class that pay their share of taxes but still struggle

what did they get? maybe enough to buy a new muffler they needed to get to work, and still not enough to pay for rising health costs, college tuition soaring, etc

Did you read the facts I posted? Their tax bills were cut almost in half and in some cases eliminated, it was paltry because they pay little to nothing. Read the numbers breakdown. The top 20% now bear a bigger portion of the burden than they did prior to the cuts.

The lower middle class pays little to not taxes. The top 50% pay 95+% of the tax bill.

They got enough to buy a 100 dollar muffler because their total tax bill for the year was probably 150 bucks.

Someone with a median household income gets back a little over 1180 dollars a year on the bush plan. Which is a about 60% of their tax bill under clinton. Looks like these tax cuts were definately done in a fair manner.

[Thorgrim]

top 1 percent of taxpayers has fallen from 33.4 percent to 26.7 percent, a 20 percent drop. In contrast, the middle 20 percent of taxpayers -- whose incomes averaged $51,500 in 2001 -- saw their tax rates drop 9.3 percent

...The middle 20 percent received $1,090, while the top 1 percent garnered $78,460

...

The tax cuts this year will boost the income of millionaires by 10.1 percent, while middle-income families see a boost of 2.3 percent

Tax Burden Shifts to the Middle (washingtonpost.com)

I don't think those making 51,000 a year are paying "little to nothing" in taxes unless tens of thousands of dollars a "little to nothing"

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

top 1 percent of taxpayers has fallen from 33.4 percent to 26.7 percent, a 20 percent drop. In contrast, the middle 20 percent of taxpayers -- whose incomes averaged $51,500 in 2001 -- saw their tax rates drop 9.3 percent

...The middle 20 percent received $1,090, while the top 1 percent garnered $78,460

...

The tax cuts this year will boost the income of millionaires by 10.1 percent, while middle-income families see a boost of 2.3 percent

Tax Burden Shifts to the Middle (washingtonpost.com)


I don't think those making 51,000 a year are paying "little to nothing" in taxes unless tens of thousands of dollars a "little to nothing"

51k/yr does NOT equal 10s of thousands in taxes. Our household income is about 74k/yr and out total tax bill will be about 19,000 dollars this year. That includes SS, and state taxes.

The top bracket of course gets more dollars back they pay more in. Fact is EVERYONE that paid taxes got a tax cut.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

From 93-2000 the rich were doing just fine...when we built a surplus there was no reason to rush out their and give them tax cuts, when you are making 500,000 a year in America you do not need a big check from the government to buy your daughter her 3rd BMW when we should have been focused on paying off the debt

However, those in the lower income range, their tax breaks were so paltry...I am not talking about the poor who don't pay taxes, I am talking about the lower-middle class that pay their share of taxes but still struggle

what did they get? maybe enough to buy a new muffler they needed to get to work, and still not enough to pay for rising health costs, college tuition soaring, etc

So basically what you're saying is that we didn't need to give them tax cuts, therefore we shouldn't do what's right?

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

51k/yr does NOT equal 10s of thousands in taxes. Our household income is about 74k/yr and out total tax bill will be about 19,000 dollars this year. That includes SS, and state taxes.

The top bracket of course gets more dollars back they pay more in. Fact is EVERYONE that paid taxes got a tax cut.

A neoconservative tax cut would be strange if it didn't cut taxes for everyone...I don't know what your big point is there

So your 19,000 in taxes is "nothing"? just a small near-worthless contribution to our government and troops...

The percentages and numbers don't lie, neither does the title of the article...you are the one being hurt most by the Bush tax cuts yet you sign on anyway, the appeal of more money is too great

Why wasn't the tax cut focused on people like you...are you too inept to invest your money? Must we rely on people who have done more with their lives than you?

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

So basically what you're saying is that we didn't need to give them tax cuts, therefore we shouldn't do what's right?

You didn't need to give anyone a tax cut, and what's right would have been to adhere to the successful Clinton policies, or take up Goldwater policies...not some "paris hilton handout-and-spend" avenue

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

You didn't need to give anyone a tax cut, and what's right would have been to adhere to the successful Clinton policies, or take up Goldwater policies...not some "paris hilton handout-and-spend" avenue

Doing things out of 'need' vs. what's 'right' are two different things. I prefer to do what's right. And as I'm sure you're aware, conservatives believe that it's not right to pay so much in taxes. That's all it boils down to. It seems to be working. The government has been breaking records in tax revenue.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Doing things out of 'need' vs. what's 'right' are two different things. I prefer to do what's right. And as I'm sure you're aware, conservatives believe that it's not right to pay so much in taxes. That's all it boils down to. It seems to be working. The government has been breaking records in tax revenue.

I don't think real conservatives like Goldwater would have anything to do with the fiscal policies Bush and the Republicans have enacted...they are buying votes with pork and tax cuts, nothing more

"breaking records in tax revenue" we're breaking records alright, in how negative our budget numbers are

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

A neoconservative tax cut would be strange if it didn't cut taxes for everyone...I don't know what your big point is there

So your 19,000 in taxes is "nothing"? just a small near-worthless contribution to our government and troops...

The percentages and numbers don't lie, neither does the title of the article...you are the one being hurt most by the Bush tax cuts yet you sign on anyway, the appeal of more money is too great

Why wasn't the tax cut focused on people like you...are you too inept to invest your money? Must we rely on people who have done more with their lives than you?

How am I being hurt by the tax cuts? My tax bill would be higher if it weren't for the tax cuts, but I'm being hurt?

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

How am I being hurt by the tax cuts? My tax bill would be higher if it weren't for the tax cuts, but I'm being hurt?

No one is ever "destroyed" simply by the act of a tax cut, I simply said you were the "most hurt" because as the WaPo points out, the tax burden shifted more towards you and you got the worst deal out of anyone...

Like I said before, you bought the argument that those who have been more successful and apparently worked harder than you are better to spend tax cuts than you are...who are we to trust you with a tax cut when Paris Hilton is out there...she is more likely to start up a business than you, why would we want to give fair tax cuts to you?

The answer is we wouldn't, and we didn't, that's why the billionares got the break and you got the short end of the stick...what can I say, try working harder...being smarter, maybe buy some lotto tickets, and hope for the best

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

No one is ever "destroyed" simply by the act of a tax cut, I simply said you were the "most hurt" because as the WaPo points out, the tax burden shifted more towards you and you got the worst deal out of anyone...

Like I said before, you bought the argument that those who have been more successful and apparently worked harder than you are better to spend tax cuts than you are...who are we to trust you with a tax cut when Paris Hilton is out there...she is more likely to start up a business than you, why would we want to give fair tax cuts to you?

The answer is we wouldn't, and we didn't, that's why the billionares got the break and you got the short end of the stick...what can I say, try working harder...being smarter, maybe buy some lotto tickets, and hope for the best

What?
This is nothing more than an emotional ploy...look at the NUMBERS IN POST 1...the ONLY tier paying a higher % of the tax burden is the TOP TIER.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

What?
This is nothing more than an emotional ploy...look at the NUMBERS IN POST 1...the ONLY tier paying a higher % of the tax burden is the TOP TIER.

I believe the Washington Post and the CBO over your little chart
Tax Foundation Figures Produce Misleading Impressions of Middle Class Tax Burdens -- Rev. 5/10/99

and I'll note that you continue to avoid 90% of the points I brought up, with facts from the CBO and WaPo

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

I don't think real conservatives like Goldwater would have anything to do with the fiscal policies Bush and the Republicans have enacted...they are buying votes with pork and tax cuts, nothing more

Yes no conservatives would be happy about starving the government. The only issue is what he did later, pushing huge spending bills.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

Yes no conservatives would be happy about starving the government. The only issue is what he did later, pushing huge spending bills.

nothing is starving...federal projects are flying like there are no tommorow

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

I believe the Washington Post and the CBO over your little chart
Tax Foundation Figures Produce Misleading Impressions of Middle Class Tax Burdens -- Rev. 5/10/99

and I'll note that you continue to avoid 90% of the points I brought up, with facts from the CBO and WaPo

1. The federal tax burden the Tax Foundation says families pay on average is about 28 percent larger than the federal tax burden that CBO estimates the typical family bears and about 51 percent larger than the federal tax burden the Joint Tax Committee estimates the typical family bears.

In its Tax Freedom Day report, the Tax Foundation estimated that families on average pay 24.3 percent of their income in federal taxes, including income tax, payroll tax, and other taxes. By contrast, the Congressional Budget Office estimates that families in the middle of the income scale pay 18.9 percent of income in federal taxes in 1999, while the Joint Committee on Taxation's estimate is 16.1 percent. The Tax Foundation's estimates are more than one-fourth to one-half higher than the estimates of these more authoritative institutions.

Nothing like manipulating stats when calling out someone else for doing the same thing


51% higher Oh wait 18.9-24.3% and 16.1-24.3%



Wonder if the other two agencies are using the same stats ? The employer contribution to FICA and Medicare, VAT etc...

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

nothing is starving...federal projects are flying like there are no tommorow

That is why I said the second part. Conservative method is cut taxes, then cut back programs. Next couple years cut taxes even more. etc....

Originally Posted by Diesel66

Nothing like manipulating stats when calling out someone else for doing the same thing


51% higher Oh wait 18.9-24.3% and 16.1-24.3%



Wonder if the other two agencies are using the same stats ? The employer contribution to FICA and Medicare, VAT etc...







That is why I said the second part. Conservative method is cut taxes, then cut back programs. Next couple years cut taxes even more. etc....

The link I posted is clearly INCOME tax only. He's comparing apples to oranges and doing it on purpose.

[Thorgrim]

How am I manipulating stats? I am merely pointing out that they are in conflict with much more respected organizations, especially the CBO which is given universal praise by both sides of the aisle

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

The link I posted is clearly INCOME tax only.

The chart is made to a prove a point from a questionable source, that is all that is made

This is not ad hominem or a red herring...you are citing the chart and the organization as "expert" and I am saying that is in doubt

again...we go farther and farther off topic

you post your "facts", i post the fact I found, you go "well...look at my facts again!"...well if you are going to sit there and stare at that chart without looking at anything else, I have no choice but to rightfully call the organization into question