Iran = Israel? Say it ain't so

Donkey® · 09-27-2006, 01:47 PM

Iran seen borrowing nuclear strategy from Israel - Yahoo! News

Originally Posted by article

By Bernd Debusmann, Special Correspondent 1 hour, 8 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - In developing its nuclear program
Iran is using strategies that allowed its enemy
Israel to assemble the Middle East's only atomic arsenal without admitting it had one, according to a leading expert on the Israeli program.

"Whether deliberately or inadvertently, there are elements of resemblance between the way Iran is pursuing its nuclear program today and the way Israel was pursuing its own program in the 1960s," Avner Cohen, author of a landmark study entitled "Israel and the Bomb," in a telephone interview.

"This is a great irony of history but Iranian policymakers and nuclear technocrats may be strategically mimicking the Israeli model," said Cohen, senior research scholar at the University of Maryland's Center for International and Security Studies.

As Cohen sees it, the elements the Israeli and Iranian nuclear programs have in common are secrecy, concealment, ambiguity, double talk and denial.

Iran's probable strategy, he says, is to create the perception of having a secret weapons program, or being close to it, without actually testing a bomb or declaring its possession or impending possession.

That echoes the Israeli program, which began in the late 1950s at the Dimona nuclear complex in the Negev Desert. Since then, Israel has declined to confirm or deny it has nuclear weapons, saying only it would not be the first to "introduce" them into the Middle East.

Over the decades, Israel's attitude has been "let the world guess" or as former Prime Minister Shimon Peres called it, "deterrence by uncertainty."

INTELLIGENCE GAPS

Intelligence agencies are guessing again. The current Washington debate on Iran features widely varying estimates of how close the Islamic state might be to a nuclear weapon.

Iran has consistently denied it is working on a weapons program and the
International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the U.N.'s nuclear watchdog, has found no evidence of one. Last month, the IAEA disputed a U.S. congressional report saying Iran was already producing weapons-grade uranium.

The
Central Intelligence Agency and the 15 other U.S. intelligence agencies use equipment from spy satellites and supercomputers to subterranean listening devices. But there are few spies on the ground in Iran, where Washington has had no official presence for more than a quarter of a century.

"The ... nature of the Iranian target poses unique HUMINT (human intelligence) challenges; since American officials have so little physical access to Iran, it is difficult to collect information there," a congressional intelligence report said last month.

"There is a great deal about Iran that we do not know."

That includes, intelligence officials acknowledge, insight into the small circle of religious figures in Iran with the authority to decide whether to pursue building a nuclear bomb and how many resources to devote to the project.

U.S. intelligence czar John Negroponte said in February that Iran was 10 years away from a bomb but later talked about "the beginning of the next decade perhaps to the middle of the next decade" - four to ten years.

He added: "Iran is ... a hard (intelligence) target. They engage in denial and deception. They don't want us necessarily to know everything that they are doing. So we don't, for example, know whether there is a secret military program and to what extent that program has made progress."

While there are parallels between Iran now and Israel then, the political context is vastly different. Beginning with
Richard Nixon, a succession of U.S. presidents looked the other way as Israel built up its arsenal, historians says. Published estimates of the number of Israel nuclear devices range from 75 to 200.

In contrast, the administration of George W. Bush has said it would not tolerate a nuclear-armed Iran, a country the president has termed part of an "axis of evil."

My opinion? I think it is a display of the typical amount of hypocrisy against muslim states that we have been known to show in the past.

6SpeedTA95 · 09-27-2006, 03:14 PM

Please provide your input and opinion in the first post

SpicyMcVoodoo · 09-27-2006, 03:46 PM

It's so hypocritical that we let Israel secretly have a stockpile of over 200 nuclear weapons, but we demand other countries comply with our every demand to leave no doubt whatsoever they're not trying to develop nukes.

Donkey® · 09-27-2006, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

It's so hypocritical that we let Israel secretly have a stockpile of over 200 nuclear weapons, but we demand other countries comply with our every demand to leave no doubt whatsoever they're not trying to develop nukes.

And in turn, skirt around all the rules we can ourselves.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 09-27-2006, 09:51 PM

Why doesn't the UN pass a resolution demanding weapons inspectors be let into Israel?

Diesel66 · 09-27-2006, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

It's so hypocritical that we let Israel secretly have a stockpile of over 200 nuclear weapons, but we demand other countries comply with our every demand to leave no doubt whatsoever they're not trying to develop nukes.

Israel didnt sign the non-proliferation treaty.

slosucks · 09-27-2006, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

It's so hypocritical that we let Israel secretly have a stockpile of over 200 nuclear weapons, but we demand other countries comply with our every demand to leave no doubt whatsoever they're not trying to develop nukes.

israel hasnt called for the destruction of an entire nation, iran has, thats why we dont let them have nukes, easy enough explination

Donkey® · 09-27-2006, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by slosucks

israel hasnt called for the destruction of an entire nation, iran has, thats why we dont let them have nukes, easy enough explination

Wrong. They have NOT called for the destruction of an entire nation. They have stated they don't think Israel should exist as a country. Get it right.

motivez · 09-29-2006, 05:25 PM

Some people interpret "Wiped off the map" as in, the country shouldn't exist on an actual map.

Others interpret it as blown up so they no longer exist.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 09-29-2006, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by slosucks

israel hasnt called for the destruction of an entire nation, iran has, thats why we dont let them have nukes, easy enough explination

We were turning a blind eye to Israel's nukes and shoving inspectors up other countries' asses long before Ahmedinejad came to power.

slosucks · 10-02-2006, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

We were turning a blind eye to Israel's nukes and shoving inspectors up other countries' asses long before Ahmedinejad came to power.

you're equating israel, which since it's founding has been based on defense, with dictatorships and countries led by psychopaths, great stuff my friend

archangel003 · 10-02-2006, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

We were turning a blind eye to Israel's nukes and shoving inspectors up other countries' asses long before Ahmedinejad came to power.

Boo fucking hoo. Foreign policy isn't some fantasy land where there are rules and everyone plays fair. Israel's our ally, why would we interfere with their military? Iran is our enemy, why wouldn't we interfere with their military?

It's amusing how something so simple can escape you guys.

ballz2wallz · 10-02-2006, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by motivez

Some people interpret "Wiped off the map" as in, the country shouldn't exist on an actual map.

How childish and naive if anyone thinks that. What exactly does that mean? They should just leave Israel alone and draw maps that don't include them?

archangel003 · 10-02-2006, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

How childish and naive if anyone thinks that. What exactly does that mean? They should just leave Israel alone and draw maps that don't include them?

Maybe they'll just draw a big blank spot where Israel is and just draw all kinds of mythical seacreatures in there like they did back in the Middle Ages.

motivez · 10-02-2006, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

How childish and naive if anyone thinks that. What exactly does that mean? They should just leave Israel alone and draw maps that don't include them?

I'm not sure how it's "childish", perhaps naive though.

I would assume it means that Israel should no longer exist as a country where it does, ie, wiping it off the map, and send the Jews to someplace in Europe.

archangel003 · 10-02-2006, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

I'm not sure how it's "childish", perhaps naive though.

I would assume it means that Israel should no longer exist as a country where it does, ie, wiping it off the map, and send the Jews to someplace in Europe.

Because we're so welcome in Europe.

ballz2wallz · 10-02-2006, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

I'm not sure how it's "childish", perhaps naive though.

I would assume it means that Israel should no longer exist as a country where it does, ie, wiping it off the map, and send the Jews to someplace in Europe.

Both childish and naive.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 10-02-2006, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by slosucks

you're equating israel, which since it's founding has been based on defense, with dictatorships and countries led by psychopaths, great stuff my friend

I love how whenever I mention two things in a single post on this forum, someone always has to chime in that I've just equated the two. Riiiiight...

I'm not equating Israel with dictatorships, but I am saying it doesn't make sense to give Israel carte blanche to build a massive nuclear arsenal, while invading other countries for allegedly possibly trying to one day build a nuclear bomb when in fact they weren't at all. Non proliferation is a joke with that sort of double standard, and it's no surprise countries want to get in on the arms race and don't take America seriously when it's so patently inconsistent with its nuclear rhetoric.

slosucks · 10-02-2006, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

I love how whenever I mention two things in a single post on this forum, someone always has to chime in that I've just equated the two. Riiiiight...

I'm not equating Israel with dictatorships, but I am saying it doesn't make sense to give Israel carte blanche to build a massive nuclear arsenal, while invading other countries for allegedly possibly trying to one day build a nuclear bomb when in fact they weren't at all. Non proliferation is a joke with that sort of double standard, and it's no surprise countries want to get in on the arms race and don't take America seriously when it's so patently inconsistent with its nuclear rhetoric.

so if youre not equating israel with dictatorships, then why can't you see why no one demands israel to disarm. It's not a double standard to let israel have nukes and forbid other countries to have nukes. countries who are deemed untrustworthy and irresponsible (iran) should not be able to have nukes, plain and simple.

ballz2wallz · 10-02-2006, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by slosucks

so if youre not equating israel with dictatorships, then why can't you see why no one demands israel to disarm. It's not a double standard to let israel have nukes and forbid other countries to have nukes. countries who are deemed untrustworthy and irresponsible (iran) should not be able to have nukes, plain and simple.

I guess it's like saying some Americans can have guns, while others (those with a questionable record) can't. I supposed it's also hypocritical (or a double standard) to prohibit those with records to have guns in a country that has the 2nd amendment?