Today in Iraq

[Thorgrim]

BAGHDAD, Iraq - The bodies of 40 men who were shot and had their hands and feet bound have been found in the capital over the past 24 hours, police said Thursday.

All the victims showed signs of torture, police Lt. Thayer Mahmoud said. They were dumped in several neighborhoods in both eastern and western Baghdad,(sunni and shia areas) he said.

40 tortured bodies found in Baghdad - Yahoo! News

If this isn't civil war...I don't know what is...if the GOP holds on to total control for another 2 years I have no idea how they think they are going to solve this

Let's point out some facts

Iraqis want us to leave, now:


BAGHDAD, Sept. 26 -- A strong majority of Iraqis want U.S.-led military forces to immediately withdraw from the country, saying their swift departure would make Iraq more secure and decrease sectarian violence, according to new polls by the State Department and independent researchers.
washingtonpost.com

US Generals say Iraq has made us less safe:
"America arguably less safe now than it was on September 11, 2001," Batiste, who commanded the 1st Infantry Division in Iraq in 2004-2005, told a hearing on the war called by U.S. Senate Democrats.

"If we had seriously laid out and considered the full range of requirements for the war in Iraq, we would likely have taken a different course of action that would have maintained a clear focus on our main effort in Afghanistan, not fueled Islamic fundamentalism across the globe, and not created more enemies than there were insurgents," Batiste said.

The GOP Senate has concluded Iraq had no pre-war ties to Al-Qaeda:
There is no evidence of formal links between Iraqi ex-leader Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda leaders prior to the 2003 war, a US Senate report says.
The finding is contained in a 2005 CIA report released by the Senate's Intelligence Committee on Friday
BBC NEWS | Americas | Saddam 'had no link to al-Qaeda'

Torture and conditions are worse than under Saddam:
Torture may be worse now in Iraq than under former leader Saddam Hussein, the UN's chief anti-torture expert says.
Manfred Nowak said the situation in Iraq was "out of control", with abuses being committed by security forces, militia groups and anti-US insurgents.
"The situation is so bad many people say it is worse than it has been in the times of Saddam Hussein," he added
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Iraq torture 'worse after Saddam'


So let's look back at this:
1) Our primary rationale was WMD, there were none, and the CIA was telling the WH it had doubts
A Spy Speaks Out , Former Top CIA Official On "Faulty" Intelligence Claims - CBS News

2) Our secondary rationale was a tie to al-qaeda, which, as cited above was wrong

3) Our most far-fetched and last rationale was the humanitarian mission (far-fetched because a significant part of the world is run by cruel dictators), but now the situation is worse than under Saddam according to international officials and many non-Sunni Iraqis

So all the causes to go to war with Iraq are wrong, the Iraqis want to leave now and Americans want to get out
Iraq


So everyone wants us to go, we didn't have a reason to go, and here we are...

Now what? How long do we stay the course...2 years, 5 years, 10, 20, a 100 years? What if the Maliki government falls, do we put back in an American viceroy and continue our occupation?

If anything deserves discussion in this country...its this

[motivez]

40 men found tortured, shot dead in Iraq - Yahoo! News

BAGHDAD, Iraq - The bodies of 40 men who been tortured were found in the capital in a span of 24 hours, police said Thursday. Bombings and shootings killed at least 21 people in and around Baghdad, including five people who died from a car-bomb explosion near a restaurant.
...
Two Iraqi soldiers were killed and 10 more injured when a suicide car bomb slammed into a checkpoint in northeast Baghdad, police said.
...
Gunmen killed seven people, including five policemen and a woman, in different locations in the province of Diyala just north of Baghdad, police said.
...
A shootout between Iraqi soldiers and a truckload of gunmen resulted in the death of six militants southwest of Baghdad, said Col. Khalil al-Zawbaey, spokesman for the 2nd Brigade.
...
A child was killed in the southern Baghdad neighborhood of Dora when a mortar shell landed on a house, police said.

Seven policemen and three Interior Ministry special forces were injured in three different bombings in the capital.

Southwest of Samarra, a city 60 miles north of Baghdad, two fuel tankers were hit with roadside bombs and blew up, police said. Police initially said the attack had been on an oil pipeline.

Freedom IS on the march. Unfortunately, it's the freedom of murderers to do as they please in this civil war... killing men, women, and children disriminately, based on their ethnicity.

It's really sad. I really think we need to stop downplaying the severity of what's going on there on a daily basis by calling it "sectarian violence" entirely. We should start calling it what it is, a civil war.

I think one of the most interesting analogies to a situation I've heard was that, imagine going into New Orleans and the surrounding areas after Katrina and trying to offer them freedom and democracy, when really what most people would want and care about is basic needs. Food, water, shelter, security.. etc..

I also agree with Rezla Aslan who was on Real Time with Bill Maher last week who said our strategy of "rooting out and killing the terrorists" was a horrible idea. Our strategy should be "Keep the Iraqi's alive".

[Stylerod]

Yup, and it would all stop if we pulled out.

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by motivez

40 men found tortured, shot dead in Iraq - Yahoo! News



Freedom IS on the march. Unfortunately, it's the freedom of murderers to do as they please in this civil war... killing men, women, and children disriminately, based on their ethnicity.

It's really sad. I really think we need to stop downplaying the severity of what's going on there on a daily basis by calling it "sectarian violence" entirely. We should start calling it what it is, a civil war.

I think one of the most interesting analogies to a situation I've heard was that, imagine going into New Orleans and the surrounding areas after Katrina and trying to offer them freedom and democracy, when really what most people would want and care about is basic needs. Food, water, shelter, security.. etc..

I also agree with Rezla Aslan who was on Real Time with Bill Maher last week who said our strategy of "rooting out and killing the terrorists" was a horrible idea. Our strategy should be "Keep the Iraqi's alive".

War yes, civil war, maybe. I don't know how much of a civil war you have when you death squads are made up mostly of foreigners.

[motivez]

Maybe it would stop if we

a) had planned beforehand to deal with this
b) had a strategy
c) had a strategy.. that worked
d) were willing to change strategies (especially when current one failing miserably)

Or, we could just put our head in the sand (of which, Iraq has plenty) our fingers in our ear, and yell "lalalalala" while interjecting "oh death from civil war statistics, I can't heaaaaaaar youuuuuuuu"..

[motivez]

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

War yes, civil war, maybe. I don't know how much of a civil war you have when you death squads are made up mostly of foreigners.

Most of the violence is happening because of Iraqi Sunni on Iraqi Shiite violence.

It's documented now. Al Qaeda in Iraq accounts for less than 5% of the type of violence we're seeing now.

Their goal was to spark a civil war through attacking certain targets, angering the other ethnic groups enough to have them start taking revenge on their rivals -- rather than Al Qaeda and their foreign fighters.

They've succeeded.

[WickedLou9]

Don't you understand.. it's hard.. hard work. Forcing a government on people.
It's hard work trying to convince the world that you are fighting for freedom.. while at the same time holding people without charges, without access to legal counsel... and subjecting them to torture. Freedom is on the march. We will stay the course. God bless america.

[Thorgrim]

shameless bump because it looks like motivez stole my story

[WickedLou9]

Quarter million Iraqis flee sectarian violence - Yahoo! News

It's a disaster over there

[avsp]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Don't you understand.. it's hard.. hard work. Forcing a government on people.
It's hard work trying to convince the world that you are fighting for freedom.. while at the same time holding people without charges, without access to legal counsel... and subjecting them to torture. Freedom is on the march. We will stay the course. God bless america.

love is hate
peace is war
etc

[avsp]

Originally Posted by motivez

Maybe it would stop if we

a) had planned beforehand to deal with this
b) had a strategy
c) had a strategy.. that worked
d) were willing to change strategies (especially when current one failing miserably)

Or, we could just put our head in the sand (of which, Iraq has plenty) our fingers in our ear, and yell "lalalalala" while interjecting "oh death from civil war statistics, I can't heaaaaaaar youuuuuuuu"..

have any alternate stratgy been considered?

is the credibilty 'cost' of more troops too great?
are domestic electorial consideration too influential in this respect?
would more troops be theanswer anyway?

would a public recognition that its primarily an intell operation (& the noting of the time it takes to mount an effective intell campaign), be of any use?

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

shameless bump because it looks like motivez stole my story

[motivez]

Merged

[KatKanPlay]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Don't you understand.. it's hard.. hard work. Forcing a government on people.
It's hard work trying to convince the world that you are fighting for freedom.. while at the same time holding people without charges, without access to legal counsel... and subjecting them to torture. Freedom is on the march. We will stay the course. God bless america.

[Stylerod]

So has anyone actually seen Motivez and Thorgrim at the same time

When I saw Mot create this thread I thought, well hell, Thor must be on vacation and Mot is filling in for him. Now I'm not so sure......

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

So has anyone actually seen Motivez and Thorgrim at the same time

When I saw Mot create this thread I thought, well hell, Thor must be on vacation and Mot is filling in for him. Now I'm not so sure......

motivez and me are nothing alike, im a kossack, a hard-fighting canvasing democrat, real liberal...motivez is not

almost all the time i hear anything from him, he is yelling at me for something

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

motivez and me are nothing alike, im a kossack, a hard-fighting canvasing democrat, real liberal...motivez is not

almost all the time i hear anything from him, he is yelling at me for something

I know. I tease.

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by motivez

Most of the violence is happening because of Iraqi Sunni on Iraqi Shiite violence.

It's documented now. Al Qaeda in Iraq accounts for less than 5% of the type of violence we're seeing now.

Their goal was to spark a civil war through attacking certain targets, angering the other ethnic groups enough to have them start taking revenge on their rivals -- rather than Al Qaeda and their foreign fighters.

They've succeeded.

I've heard alot of the sectarian militias are made up of foreigners. Or so said my NY Times.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

motivez and me are nothing alike, im a kossack, a hard-fighting canvasing democrat, real liberal...motivez is not

almost all the time i hear anything from him, he is yelling at me for something

I think your views are more similar than you think.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by JaJae

I think your views are more similar than you think.

they are similiar if you compare us to frickin fascists

its like saying me and you have similiar political views if you compare us to a monarchist of the 18th century