64-35 Detainee bill passes

[Thorgrim]

This thread isn't about how particularly disgusting the bill is...rather about the 12 Democrats who voted for it:

Pro-Lieberman, anti-Democratic Party nominee crowd:
Lieberman (Conn.)
Carper (Del.)
Johnson (S.D.)
Landrieu (La.)
Lieberman (Conn.)
Pryor (Ark.)
Salazar (Co.)
Nelson (Fla.)
Nelson (Neb.)

About those 9 Dems...trust me DailyKos and the Progressive movement would trade them for a real Democrat in a second...However in most cases a new candidate is hard to field and would give up the seat to a Republican who would be even more conservative...but we tried this year and got Lamont...and despite all our efforts Lamont is still struggling...simply put we'd need a lot more money to replace these people...and some like Johnson and Nelson couldn't be replaced if they voted differently...and Reid is unable to strip them of their title...they got elected in their primary

If you don't like it, give money to their challengers like we did with Lamont

Lautenberg (N.J.)
Menendez (N.J)
Rockefeller (W. Va.)
Stabenow (Mich.)

Rockefeller is in Byrd's shadow forever as a conservative southern Democrat, and he'll retire soon enough and we can either replace him or lose the seat...either way good riddance
Lautenberg is close to the most unpopular Senator, he was put in as a desperate measure because of corrupt NJ politics
Speaking of corrupt NJ politics, Menendez did the vote to try and help his campaign, but thats no excuse...if we lose this one I won't be shedding any tears

Stabenow is really difficult to figure out, the only thing I can think is that she saw it was a blowout and her advisors told her it would help her re-election...in any case she's mistaken and hopefully this is her last time

However we did get 33 Democrats, a clear majority, and 1 Republican, Chafee

Like in 1976 when Reagan lost, we need decades of work to reform a party to get the core values out there

Those who are still freaking out, should keep this in mind:
Daily Kos: Calm the Fuck Down Already

Most importantly:
1) The SC will almost certainly over-turn this

[KatKanPlay]

Most importantly:
1) The SC will almost certainly over-turn this

[/quote]

I pray this is true, but if the SC turns partisan,, this country has taken a very dangerous turn.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

I pray this is true, but if the SC turns partisan,, this country has taken a very dangerous turn.[/quote]

If we capture the senate, that worry will be turned off for 2 years...for the most part...after what they did with Clinton nominees the GOP has shown how to deny the president appointments

[ballz2wallz]

Are they all really republicans like Lieberman is

[JaJae]

If our government is going to charge our servicemen for international violations, then we should make sure our soldiers know whether or not they're following a legal order.

It sucks that it has to come down to this. But it isn't the fault of Republicans...

[KatKanPlay]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Are they all really republicans like Lieberman is

OMy I hadnt thought of that, could it be a conspiracy???

[KatKanPlay]

Originally Posted by JaJae

If our government is going to charge our servicemen for international violations, then we should make sure our soldiers know whether or not they're following a legal order.

It sucks that it has to come down to this. But it isn't the fault of Republicans...

What has that got to do with it?

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

What has that got to do with it?

Um everything.

When our courts start ruling on international law we need to make it known what they are going to convinct on. Our courts are obviously more strict than the international courts who aren't trying our servicemen.

Therefore isn't it needed to name the guidelines of which our nation is if we are going to be trying and convicting our soldiers on international laws?

You can claim it's a Bush coverup or an expansion of power. But when it comes down to it, it's a result of the liberal tendencies of our nation wanting to convict our servicemen on vague international laws. These same laws that even the international community. which dispises us in Iraq. isn't even bringing to their court system.

[KatKanPlay]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Um everything.

When our courts start ruling on international law we need to make it known what they are going to convinct on. Our courts are obviously more strict than the international courts who aren't trying our servicemen.

Therefore isn't it needed to name the guidelines of which our nation is if we are going to be trying and convicting our soldiers on international laws?

Thats not what this vote referred to. It referred to all of the detainees we currently have in custody and detainees we will take in the future.

The Writ of Habeas Corpus no longer applies. And if it passes it may never apply again. But I dont think we are supposed to be discussing body of the subject, just the vote.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

Thats not what this vote referred to. It referred to all of the detainees we currently have in custody and detainees we will take in the future.

The Writ of Habeas Corpus no longer applies. And if it passes it may never apply again. But I dont think we are supposed to be discussing body of the subject, just the vote.

Senate Passes Terror Detainee Bill, Endorses President Bush's Plan To Create Military Commissions, 65-34 - CBS News

The bill would create military commissions to prosecute terrorism suspects. It also would prohibit blatant abuses of detainees but grant the president flexibility to decide what interrogation techniques are permissible.

It has everything to do with holding them and what constitutes "torture."

[Thorgrim]

Even the Nazis obeyed the geneva conventions...the NAZIS (no its not goodwins law its just the last major war we faced)

You know how many Americans were captured? Do you know how many of those were water-tortured?

This bill allows you, yes you, JaJae, to be siezed, thrown in a cell, be raped, tortured, and otherwise abused, and be locked in that cell for the rest of your life without you ever seeing the proper evidence against you

Even in during the Civil War such violations were unthinkable

This is fundamentally unconstitutional, and if we had men the stature of those who fought in the revolution, there would be riots in the street...

[KatKanPlay]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Senate Passes Terror Detainee Bill, Endorses President Bush's Plan To Create Military Commissions, 65-34 - CBS News



It has everything to do with holding them and what constitutes "torture."

I guess we are not communicating because you referred to our soldiers and international law.

I dont see the relevance.

What the Bill does is allow for detention without charge. If you are suspected of being a terrorists and the kgb ahemm excuse, law enforcement decides to take you into custody. They can hold you indefinately and never bring you up on charges or to trial if they chose not too. Now if one of our soldiers is suspected of terrorism, I can see the application.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Even the Nazis obeyed the geneva conventions...the NAZIS (no its not goodwins law its just the last major war we faced)

You know how many Americans were captured? Do you know how many of those were water-tortured?

This bill allows you, yes you, JaJae, to be siezed, thrown in a cell, be raped, tortured, and otherwise abused, and be locked in that cell for the rest of your life without you ever seeing the proper evidence against you

Even in during the Civil War such violations were unthinkable

This is fundamentally unconstitutional, and if we had men the stature of those who fought in the revolution, there would be riots in the street...

Tell that to the Jews. These men weren't in uniform. The Nazi comparisons are getting real old, real fast.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

I guess we are not communicating because you referred to our soldiers and international law.

I dont see the relevance.

What the Bill does is allow for detention without charge. If you are suspected of being a terrorists and the kgb ahemm excuse, law enforcement decides to take you into custody. They can hold you indefinately and never bring you up on charges or to trial if they chose not too. Now if one of our soldiers is suspected of terrorism, I can see the application.

We've been detaining without charge during war. This is nothing new since the founding of our nation.

What is new is that there are guidelines now so our soldiers know what the courts are going to be convicting them for and what techniques they can legally use to interrogate.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Tell that to the Jews. These men weren't in uniform. The Nazi comparisons are getting real old, real fast.

Tell that to all the Americans who weren't tortured by the Nazis because of the conventions

nice side-step of the other issues though

[Thorgrim]

Man that would have really killed enlistment rates during wars if they thought our nation was being set up not to promote liberty but to allow the government to detain any american without evidence and rape and torture him for the rest of his life

where are the libertarians on this? jees

[SoFlaJDM]

i'm emailing bill nelson about this

i want to volunteer for him before elections, but not if he's gonna pull this shit

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Man that would have really killed enlistment rates during wars if they thought our nation was being set up not to promote liberty but to allow the government to detain any american without evidence and rape and torture him for the rest of his life

where are the libertarians on this? jees

Rest of their life?

If you think Hitler was peachy to our soldiers you have another thing coming to you. That's more liberal propaganda to compare Bush to Hitler.

[KatKanPlay]

Originally Posted by JaJae

We've been detaining without charge during war. This is nothing new since the founding of our nation.

What is new is that there are guidelines now so our soldiers know what the courts are going to be convicting them for and what techniques they can legally use to interrogate.

There will be no courts or convictions.

[KatKanPlay]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Rest of their life?

If you think Hitler was peachy to our soldiers you have another thing coming to you. That's more liberal propaganda to compare Bush to Hitler.

You continue to avoid the issue.