If rights come from God, not social contract, then why

SpicyMcVoodoo · 09-29-2006, 01:50 PM

do the most religious people in America think it's okay to lock up people and throw away the key without a trial just because they're not American citizens or officially soldiers?

WickedLou9 · 09-29-2006, 01:53 PM

I don't see this going well.

Phantom · 09-29-2006, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

do the most religious people in America think it's okay to lock up people and throw away the key without a trial just because they're not American citizens or officially soldiers?

nice.

I guess it could be argued that only some certain unalienable rights come from god, but liberty and due process before imprisonment surely are among those.

Nonphixion · 09-29-2006, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

do the most religious people in America think it's okay to lock up people and throw away the key without a trial just because they're not American citizens or officially soldiers?

The bill applies to American citizens explicity, as not having the rights to trial as well.

So the case isn't that "because they're not American citizens" -- since we are all vulnerable to the bill's legislation of being locked up and denied a trial. Just on the whims of Bush II your mother or father could be detained without evidence ... just on "suspicion".

Stylerod · 09-29-2006, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

do the most religious people in America think it's okay to lock up people and throw away the key without a trial just because they're not American citizens or officially soldiers?

"Most" religous people think this? That's an interesting statement.

Publius · 09-29-2006, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Stylerod

"Most" religous people think this? That's an interesting statement.

He is asking if THE most religious people think this, not saying that most religious people think it.

Diesel66 · 09-29-2006, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

do the most religious people in America think it's okay to lock up people and throw away the key without a trial just because they're not American citizens or officially soldiers?

??????????

Stylerod · 09-29-2006, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

He is asking if THE most religious people think this, not saying that most religious people think it.

Was there a poll of "the most religious" people to say this is even true?

Phantom · 09-29-2006, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Diesel66

??????????

To clean it up, the assertion is that there is a failure in logic

Many persons, especially religious, believe certain inalienable rights (like liberty, due process before imprisonment etc.) are derived from God, not positively created by government.

It would be hypocritical for those same persons to support those inalienable rights for only US citizens, and not those abroad, unless of course there was some limitation on the (not so-)inalienable rights.

Diesel66 · 09-29-2006, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Phantom

and not those abroad, unless of course there was some limitation on the (not so-)inalienable rights.

again ????????????

Publius · 09-29-2006, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by Diesel66

again ????????????

Referencing the Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Many on the far (and I do mean FAR) religious right want to deny these Rights to people just because they aren't Americans... Yet they support the D.o.I., which explicitly states that ALL men (not just all Americans) are endowed by their Creator (God) with these rights.

So the disconnect in logic is how do they on the one hand agree that God gave everyone these inalienable rights, but on the other hand agree with laws that deny these rights to people just because they aren't American citizens.

Diesel66 · 09-29-2006, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

Many on the far (and I do mean FAR) religious right want to deny these Rights to people just because they aren't Americans...

I know where the quote comes from, what I am asking is who is he talking about.

Publius · 09-29-2006, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by Diesel66

I know where the quote comes from, what I am asking is who is he talking about.

The people out there on the far right that support this new law that is speeding towards the White House.

lew · 09-29-2006, 03:27 PM

SpicyMcVoodoo · 09-29-2006, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by Diesel66

I know where the quote comes from, what I am asking is who is he talking about.

I'm just using a bit of deductive reasoning. The more religious people are in America, the more likely they are to be conservative, and the more conservative you are, the more likely you are to deny accused terrorists or combatants rights.

Diesel66 · 09-29-2006, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

The people out there on the far right that support this new law that is speeding towards the White House.

wow very descriptive. What law are we talking about ?

SpicyMcVoodoo · 09-29-2006, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Phantom

nice.

I guess it could be argued that only some certain unalienable rights come from god, but liberty and due process before imprisonment surely are among those.

Yeah, that could be argued, except not being thrown in prison forever on a whim is as basic a right as you can get, not a mere luxury provided to citizens.

If someone argues this, I'd be curious to see where they draw the line between God-granted inalienable rights vs. "luxury" rights via social contract.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 09-29-2006, 03:37 PM

And by the way, if you dispute that it's the most religious people who want to deny rights, then just ignore that part and see the question as:

If rights come from God, not the social contract, then why is it okay to deny rights to people just because they're not part of the American social contract or the Geneva Convention international social contract?

lew · 09-29-2006, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

And by the way, if you dispute that it's the most religious people who want to deny rights, then just ignore that part and see the question as:

If rights come from God, not the social contract, then why is it okay to deny rights to people just because they're not part of the American social contract or the Geneva Convention international social contract?

I don't think rights come from God. I think that certain rights come from God, the rest come from social contracts.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 09-29-2006, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

Referencing the Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Doesn't a plain reading of this text mean that America is to treat all men the same with respect to their rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, regardless of any other factor?