Israel bombs Gaza killing 200+

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by motivez

What use is pulling out of Gaza if they still re-enter it whenever they want, have continued building settlements, erecting barricades, and enacting a total blockade for nearly 2 years including humanitarian aid?

Israel killing so many innocent people only perpetuates the violence and strengthens Hamas' position, like happened with Hezbollah and Lebanon. A severe overreaction does nothing to further the process.

When this is over, Hamas will still exist.. and who do you think will help the people who've been needlessly hurt by Israel rebuild what's left of their lives? Hamas.

Hamas has done more harm to Palestine than good. If another government were in charge they could have accomplished a lot more by focusing on helping the Palestinian more than hurting the Israelis. Hamas admits to purposely killing Palestinians for media propaganda and people still come in here and claim Hamas is good for the Palestinian people.

[motivez]

What other government? The corrupt Fatah government?

I've never claimed Hamas has been good for anyone, nor have I endorsed their operations or attempted to justify their lobbing rockets aimlessly into civilian areas.

The difference is unlike others, I don't do that when it comes to Israeli actions.

[Photon1001]

Originally Posted by HughRuss

You're only partially right.

The land was handed declared a safe haven for Jews in the 40s, but a Jewish Council in 1942 declared the land for the Jews and the Jews only, and in '48, the Zionist movement declared independence from other control and established a theocratic-Jewish state.

I wanted to be sure on this, as I've always thought Israel was a western, secular democracy, So I googled, "Is Israel theocratic?"

This is the first result:

Public Opinion: Is Israel a theocracy?

Feel free to tear their argument apart, it seemed to me to be quite derisive.

[palestinian]

So if America is the proper owner of the land, then why isn't Israel the proper owner of Palestine? It was taken the same way the US government took the North American continent.

I appreciate that you answered some of my question, but I appreciate it more if you answer the rest of my questions.

As to your answer, no Palestine was not taken the same way. But Palestine at least the 1967 is considered by the international law as an occupied area, and any people under occupation have the right to fight for their freedom. Or this is not the case for Palestinians?

We've been through this actually. BTW, emotional plays don't work to well with me with this issue. Especially since the "oppressed" Hamas is more then happy to hit the "barbaric" Israelis with all the rockets they can get their hands on.

I'm not playing emotions, am asking simple rational questions. Anyways, what do you think of the political status of Gaza? Is it an occupied area? Is it a state? An entity?

Is it okay with you (or any member) to impose collective punishment on a whole population?

[palestinian]

It doesn't take that long to dig a tunnel, maybe 1-2 weeks to dig a 500-600 meter tunnel.

You think Palestinians have the tools to dig such long tunnel in 1-2 week? Wow you must be joking.

[palestinian]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Does Hamas?

Yes. Hamas omitted its call for the destruction of Israel from its elections manifesto, calling of an independent state whose capital is Jerusalem. On Feb 8 2006, Hamas leader Khaled Meshal stated that Hamas would possibly agree to a ceasefire with Israel if it withdrew from lands occupied in 1967. On Feb 13 2006 in an interview in Russian newspaper Nezavisimaya Gazeta, Meshal again held up the possibility of a long term truce with Israel if Israel recognized the 1949 armistice lines, withdraw itself from all Palestinian territories including West Bank and East Jerusalem and recognized Palestinian rights that would include the right of return.

On Apr 21 2008 former US president Jimmy Carter met with Hamas leader Khaled Meshal and reached an agreement that Hamas will respect the creation of Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza stip areas seized by Israel in the Six-Day war of 1967 provided this be ratified by Palestinian people in referendum.

[Swift]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

It wasn't taken the same way. Other entities took it from the Palestinians...not the Jews. If the Jews had gathered an army and took it by force instead of having it handed to them by the British et al...people could respect their position more.

Yeah, it was. Because it didn't mention anything about rockets, or the fact that Hamas wants Israel wipeout out and controlled by muslims or nothing.

All we heard about was barbaric Israeli attacks.

I've said earlier that this is certainly not a one sided deal, funny how Palestinian seemed to miss that post:

Originally Posted by Swift-Bass

Usually I do go "pro-israel" when things like this happen. However, in the research that I have done it's very plain that Israel is as responsible for this as Hamas.

But yeah, I'm done thinking about the starving hurt children and the homes in ruin. Why? Not because I'm a cold hearted bastard, but if you dangle that out in front of anyone and their heart doesn't ache, then they simply aren't human.

I don't believe for one second that the Israeli government wants to kill children. They want to stop Hamas from acting aggressively towards them. Hamas wants to do a whole bunch of things that I think are wrong.

Should Israel let the supplies through, yes. Should Hamas dismantle any armorments that could be used to attack Israel? yes. How else is Israel going to know that it isn't just another temporary appeasement?

Hamas has a duty to its citizens. Since it's obvious Gaza doesn't have the resources to provide a stable life for it's people, shouldn't at least a little bit of humility be shown, from both sides, to save the lives of the people?

Originally Posted by palestinian

Yes. Hamas omitted its call for the destruction of Israel from its elections manifesto, calling of an independent state whose capital is Jerusalem. On Feb 8 2006, Hamas leader Khaled Meshal stated that Hamas would possibly agree to a ceasefire with Israel if it withdrew from lands occupied in 1967. On Feb 13 2006 in an interview in Russian newspaper Nezavisimaya Gazeta, Meshal again held up the possibility of a long term truce with Israel if Israel recognized the 1949 armistice lines, withdraw itself from all Palestinian territories including West Bank and East Jerusalem and recognized Palestinian rights that would include the right of return.

I'm sorry, but that still sounds a lot like they want the Jews out of the way. Just in a lot nicer language.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by motivez

What other government? The corrupt Fatah government?

And Hamas is uncorrupted? You're really stretching here to defend Hamas and their violence.

I've never claimed Hamas has been good for anyone, nor have I endorsed their operations or attempted to justify their lobbing rockets aimlessly into civilian areas.

The difference is unlike others, I don't do that when it comes to Israeli actions.

You're also reluctant to admit it's wrong of them. I've said over and over again that both sides have their faults. This involves to rivaling governments conducting what really is a war. The difference is one side wants peace and targets military points of interest. The other side wants war, targets civilians and promotes the deaths of their citizens to expand their propaganda war in light of the fact they know they can not win the war militarily. Israel is doing what any nation would do to protect its citizens in war. Hamas/Palestine is not.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Swift-Bass

I'm sorry, but that still sounds a lot like they want the Jews out of the way. Just in a lot nicer language.

Basically Hamas diplomacy is "we want our land or we'll kill you." And then they claim Israel doesn't know what diplomacy is.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by Swift-Bass

Yeah, it was. Because it didn't mention anything about rockets, or the fact that Hamas wants Israel wipeout out and controlled by muslims or nothing.

All we heard about was barbaric Israeli attacks.

What? I am talking when the country of Israel was formed...not now.

[HughRuss]

Originally Posted by Photon1001

I wanted to be sure on this, as I've always thought Israel was a western, secular democracy, So I googled, "Is Israel theocratic?"

This is the first result:

Public Opinion: Is Israel a theocracy?

Feel free to tear their argument apart, it seemed to me to be quite derisive.

It seems that article would agree with me on Israel being a theocracy. Given their laws are derived from religion, their leaders are elected on religious basis, and the country is homogeneous Jewish, then it's pretty clear the country is theocratic.

[LetTheTruthBeTold]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Why not humanize the Israeli deaths? Israel has also been maimed and wounded. Only Palestinian deaths need to b e humanized? There are two sides to this conflict.

We seem to be entering into the Holocaust Exploitation arena. How many Israeli's have been killed in this past week compared to the Palestinians? Have a number in mind? Is there really a comparison. I am in no way saying that Israeli deaths are not existing but you really can't do a comparison here. No one is trying to be one-sided but this is a massacre on the Palestinians and sometimes we forget that.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by JaJae

And Hamas is uncorrupted? You're really stretching here to defend Hamas and their violence.

What government doesn't have some corruption? I suggest you read up a bit more on the corruption of Fatah, as it's one of the prime reasons they defeated in the elections.

Originally Posted by JaJae

You're also reluctant to admit it's wrong of them.

Actually, no.. I'm not reluctant at all and I've stated very plainly several times in this thread alone that their actions aren't justifiable, which means they're wrong.

I've never tried to justify their actions, I've never condoned them. I've tried to put them in perspective with what Israel does and to explain that it's the only means they have available to them.. because it's important to be informed when discussing this instead of blindly repeating talking points given to the major news networks by the Israeli media lobbies.

Originally Posted by JaJae

The difference is one side wants peace and targets military points of interest. The other side wants war, targets civilians and promotes the deaths of their citizens to expand their propaganda war in light of the fact they know they can not win the war militarily. Israel is doing what any nation would do to protect its citizens in war. Hamas/Palestine is not.

I've already shown how wrong you are by highlighting the fact that if Israel wanted peace, they would have pursued diplomatic channels before launching a military action.

If they wanted peace, they would have lived up to their various agreements over the years that promised a stop to new settlements, they wouldn't block humanitarian aid, and they wouldn't taken excessive military actions which only strengthen the support of organizations which promise to retaliate and fight them.

You're also wrong about them targeting "military points of interest" and have been proven wrong several times in this thread. They continue to target civilian and civic structures, both during this incursion into Gaza and previously when they went to Lebanon.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Why not humanize the Israeli deaths? Israel has also been maimed and wounded. Only Palestinian deaths need to b e humanized? There are two sides to this conflict.

Israeli deaths are humanized every day across the major media outlets in the US and across the world.

On the contrary, the full extent of the suffering that Israel inflicts on innocent men, women, and children in Palestine is rarely shown. Death totals are usually lobbed together with any Hamas death figures and they're all called "militants" even though it's clearly not true in all of the cases.

I could show videos I've seen this time around that show dead women and children in pieces because Israel bombed a marketplace. It's sad and people need to know so they don't continue to support excessive Israeli military action and the suffering they inflict.

[LetTheTruthBeTold]

The main point here is that Israel says one thing to the world and does another thing behind their back. Israel does not want peace the one peace they want is the whole piece of Palestine.


Yet as this air and ground incursion of Gaza by Israel is under way there is still hope in the air for the people of Gaza. In 2006, the time that Israel was in war on Lebanon Hezbollah fired 3,000 cluster bombs at Israel, while Israel; dropped 4.6 million cluster bombs into Southern Lebanon. The cluster bombs were 90% used during the last 72 hours of the war when the UN resolutions was passed ending the war and the implementation was to follow. Hezbollah ending up victorious in the end using only 3,000 cluster bombs compared to Israel who used 4.6 million cluster bombs. That goes to show us that military power is not the determent factor in winning a war.

[LetTheTruthBeTold]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Hamas has done more harm to Palestine than good. If another government were in charge they could have accomplished a lot more by focusing on helping the Palestinian more than hurting the Israelis. Hamas admits to purposely killing Palestinians for media propaganda and people still come in here and claim Hamas is good for the Palestinian people.

Where did you get your fabricated information from that

Hamas admits to purposely killing Palestinians for media propaganda

.

You point out here that

Hamas has done more harm to Palestine than good. If another government were in charge they could have accomplished a lot more by focusing on helping the Palestinian more than hurting the Israelis.

Hamas, is doing the best they can to keep it's people fighting for freedom and government away from corruption. The conditions that the people of Gaza live in now have nothing to do with Hamas. Israel, is the occupier they are taking control and cutting of the basic necessities that any human needs for sustenance thinking the people of Gaza will surrender. The Israelis may have dropped their leaflets into Gaza warning the residents that they either leave their homes or get attacked and killed in their homes. Most of the people decided that they would rather die in their homes then escape or surrender that is self-determination. Who has that kind of courage not the Israelis?

[LetTheTruthBeTold]

Originally Posted by Swift-Bass

Yeah, it was. Because it didn't mention anything about rockets, or the fact that Hamas wants Israel wipeout out and controlled by muslims or nothing.

All we heard about was barbaric Israeli attacks.

I've said earlier that this is certainly not a one sided deal, funny how Palestinian seemed to miss that post:

But yeah, I'm done thinking about the starving hurt children and the homes in ruin. Why? Not because I'm a cold hearted bastard, but if you dangle that out in front of anyone and their heart doesn't ache, then they simply aren't human.

I don't believe for one second that the Israeli government wants to kill children. They want to stop Hamas from acting aggressively towards them. Hamas wants to do a whole bunch of things that I think are wrong.

Should Israel let the supplies through, yes. Should Hamas dismantle any armorments that could be used to attack Israel? yes. How else is Israel going to know that it isn't just another temporary appeasement?

Hamas has a duty to its citizens. Since it's obvious Gaza doesn't have the resources to provide a stable life for it's people, shouldn't at least a little bit of humility be shown, from both sides, to save the lives of the people?


I'm sorry, but that still sounds a lot like they want the Jews out of the way. Just in a lot nicer language.

I don't believe for one second that the Israeli government wants to kill children.

Really? The massacres of Palestinians throughout history beginning in the 1940's says otherwise. Familiarize yourself with Ethnic Cleansing.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by LetTheTruthBeTold

We seem to be entering into the Holocaust Exploitation arena. How many Israeli's have been killed in this past week compared to the Palestinians? Have a number in mind? Is there really a comparison. I am in no way saying that Israeli deaths are not existing but you really can't do a comparison here. No one is trying to be one-sided but this is a massacre on the Palestinians and sometimes we forget that.

Palestinians are dying because of the actions of Hamas. Hiding rockets and launchers in heavily populated areas thinkings that Israel won't attack there but knowing that if they do it will cause innocent lives lost which they will use to their advantage in convincing the simple minded that they are really the good guys.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by LetTheTruthBeTold

The main point here is that Israel says one thing to the world and does another thing behind their back. Israel does not want peace the one peace they want is the whole piece of Palestine.

If they really wanted all of Palestine they could just take it and make it a part of Israel. They could then secure all the boarders permanently and their country and the Palestinian people would be better off. Right now it is just a security risk to their country. But that would never happen because of international pressure.

[kinggovernor]

for the people that dislike Israel, what say you about the actions of Egypt?