Originally Posted by Photon1001 Israel is one of the most liberal-progressive nations on the planet. Not really. Israel is much more conservative than many people I feel in the US realize, especially when it comes to ethnic identity. It has lead to racist laws and policies and pretty much the ...
12-29-2008, 12:20 PM
| #21 | ||||
| Member  Liberal 
| Originally Posted by Photon1001 Not really. Israel is much more conservative than many people I feel in the US realize, especially when it comes to ethnic identity. It has lead to racist laws and policies and pretty much the entire occupation in its current state. Israel could have annexed the land right after taking it and we would have had a one state solution. The problem is that Israel wants the land but not the population since it isn't Jewish enough. This has lead to the current legal limbo and crimes against humanity.
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12-29-2008, 12:24 PM
| #22 | ||||
| Member Liberal
| Originally Posted by kombayn He used the word zionism why does that automatically mean conspiracy? The Israeli government are zionists and Israel was founded by zionists; hence why it insists on a Jewish ethnic identity.
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12-29-2008, 03:04 PM
| #23 | ||||
| *insert uninteresting nomenclature here*  Independent Unfortunately, Michigan
| Originally Posted by Dylith Because it is true. Most of North African and the Middle East are run by ultra-conservative, religious fanatics.
__________________ Show me a man who can face down armies alone, and I'll show the the centerpiece of the next hypocritical religion of the world. | ||||
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12-29-2008, 03:19 PM
| #24 | ||||
| Member Liberal
| Originally Posted by Photon1001 You do realize that the world's largest poll on Muslim attitudes towards the west (the world Muslim Gallup Poll) completely puts down the notion that Muslims hate us for our freedom right?
In fact our freedoms where some of the things that Muslims said that they liked the most about the US (this includes political and economic freedom along with women's rights). | ||||
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12-29-2008, 03:40 PM
| #25 | ||||
| Noob Nationalist
| Originally Posted by Photon1001 yeah, we hate "Israel" but not because of your freedom as you claim, but because you have killed the owner of the Palestine land and stole it and you continue in your terrorist work. By the way, freedom is not killing innocent people. allah or God give us freedom that makes us live in peace without hurting anybody.you have to respect all people belief. we as muslims respect christian people and peaceable jewish.
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12-29-2008, 04:05 PM
| #26 | ||||
| Formerly known as Swift-Bass  Conservative Baltimore, MD
| Originally Posted by arab To say that Israel is a innocent in any of these incidents would be radically naive. However, to say that muslims respect Christians and Jews may be true. But muslim extrmeists hold them in contempt.
Besides's, who "owns" the land of palistine is totally debatable. Especially since both Jews and Muslims clam Abraham as their father. | ||||
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12-29-2008, 05:31 PM
| #27 | ||||
| ἀλήθεια  Humanist while (1)
| Originally Posted by Swift-Bass And Christians.
However, the Israeli state was created after World War II to give the Jewish religion a state of freedom. It was created by America (the great crusaders) and the land was essentially stolen form the inhabitants. That very act was the starting point of the great American hate that precipitates throughout the middle east. That's also why the Palestinians and the Israelites (mostly the Zionists) fight over the land --amongst the other 'ideological' reason. Keep in mind, a peace treaty for Jerusalem, and the areas surrounding it, had survived from the 1300s until the 1940s. Oh, and Muslim extremists do not hold any particular religion in contempt. Their fight is not religious, despite the many claims to the otherwise (fighting in the name of Allah, etc). Had Islamic extremists existed prior to the current era, you'd have a point. They, however, did not. Extremists any more view the war as retaliation against forces comprised of a plurality of religions. They don't target Christians, or Jews specifically --though many leaders, it is true any more, claim death to the Jewish religion. They fight because they believe they have been wronged, and in many ways, they have a point. A brief timeline: 1922 -- Congress passed an agreement for the creation of a state in Palestinian land for the sanctity of the Jews, which was later adopted by the British as the British Mandate of Palestine. 1942 -- Zionist movement declared Palestine as a Jewish Commonwealth 1948 -- Jewish forces claimed independence from Britain, established a holistically Jewish state, and created Israel as a safe haven for Jews; thereby discluding Muslims and Palestinians, launching the first of many wars between Israel and Islamic countries. 1948 -- America became the first nation, followed closely by the Soviet Union, to recognize Israel as a country, for three primary reasons: 1. Soviet Threat to American Freedom 2. Ideological reasons (a predominately Christian America wanted sanctity for "god's chosen people") 3. The booming business of petroleum 1949-50 -- America adopts the foreign policy of "neutrality" in the Israeli conflicts (despite its armament and training of Israeli troops), establishing western friendly governments in the middle east for the petroleum business, and the combat the threat of Soviet communism (specifically in Iran and Turkey) Early 1950s -- Iran nationalized its Oil Reserves 1953 -- America approves Operation Ajax, in collaboration with British forces, to depose the Iranian prime minister 1953-4 -- America subversively attempts to setup a west friendly government in Iran 1960s -- America begins to sell advanced missiles to Israel, but also arms the opposing sides, Egypt and Jordan, still maintaining a Neutral stance 1973 -- Yom Kippur war, where Arabic countries invaded Israeli land in an attempt to disestablish Jewish dominance. Israel armed by America, and backed by America as well. War ended with the withdrawal of Arabic forces. 1979 -- Iranian revolution begins, destroying American-Iranian relations by ousting the only semblance of western cooperation, the Shah. Late 1979-early 1980 -- Afghanistan invaded by Soviet Union 1980-88 -- Iran/Iraq war began, where the United States decided to back Iraqi forces, as well as armed the Iraqi government with weaponry. The weaponry was used against two forces, the Iranians, and the Kurds. 1981-88 -- American covert operations, in concordance with Charlie Wilson, began arming and training Afghan fighters in order to combat the Soviet threat 1984 -- The United States begins dealing weapons to Iran, effectively arming both sides and possibly wishing no side to win. The profits were later used to combat Soviet forces in South America 1986-88 -- America promised to help Afghanistan rebuild their infrastructure after the Soviet invasion and destruction, yet, after the Soviets withdrew, so did the Americans, leaving a poor nation in turmoil. 1990 -- A once America backed Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, a stronghold of American oil business, claiming it a part of Iraq. 1990-91 -- America launches the Gulf War 1990s -- Lots of stuff happens 2001 -- America is attacked by Islamic extremists bent on retaliation 2001-present -- America launches Afghanistan War, deposed the Taliban, and failed to capture the man responsible for the attacks 2003-present -- America launches Iraq war, deposes Saddam Hussein, and fritters away a lot of lives and money With all of that in mind, the Islamic extremists any more are not inculcated to believe the war they fight is a conflict between Christians, Jews, and the Muslims. Despite them throwing around the term "Infidel" their fight is a reaction to America's marionett'ing in the middle east. The movie 'Traitor' did an exceptional job at explaining this point, that the Islamic extremists are not destroying infidels primarily because of religion, but because of "the crusaders" invading their land, and the like. sources (all wikipedia = lol): Israelā€“United States relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Iranā€“Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Iranā€“United States relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia United States support for Iraq during the Iranā€“Iraq war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia United States support for Iran during the Iranā€“Iraq war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Yom Kippur War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Soviet war in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Gulf War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
__________________ History is a nightmare from which I'm trying to awake. --Stephen Dedalus (by way of Joyce) Last edited by HughRuss; 12-29-2008 at 09:33 PM.. | ||||
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12-29-2008, 05:37 PM
| #28 | ||||
| ipsa Scientia Potestas est  Pragmatist
| Originally Posted by David Ben-Gurion -- David Ben-Gurion, First Prime Minister of Israel
He puts it pretty well I think. | ||||
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12-29-2008, 06:26 PM
| #29 | ||||
| Braccae tuae aperiuntur.  Reform Party
| Originally Posted by HughRuss Your timeline begins quite a few centuries late in my opinion. This conflict has roots that go way back.
__________________ "I don't know where these people got their scientific education, but where I come from, if your theory can't predict or explain the observed facts, it's wrong." | ||||
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12-29-2008, 06:27 PM
| #30 | ||||
| Guest
| The nov4 raids were in response to mortar fire and directly targeted a tunnel that was for abducting Israeli soldiers. The Raw Story | Five Palestinians killed in Israeli raid on Gaza: medical sources Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen | World news | guardian.co.uk Israel troops kill Hamas gunman in Gaza raid-medics | Reuters A few on the blockade Israeli court backs Gaza blockade | World news | guardian.co.uk Israel decides to maintain Gaza blockade - Telegraph Israel spurns U.N. on Gaza blockade - Israel-Palestinians- msnbc.com The principal behind the blockade is logical the extent to which is has been implemented is pretty bad. Food and other necessities have been cut off. The blockade should be lifted or at the very least seriously scaled down. | ||||
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12-29-2008, 06:32 PM
| #31 | ||||
| ipsa Scientia Potestas est Pragmatist
| Israel doesn't have precogs, what they thought a tunnel on Palestinian land was for is irrelevant, they launched an airstrike killing Palestinians in violation of the ceasefire, not Hamas. Any people has a right to defend themselves, and that's what Hamas is doing.. even if their methods aren't justifiable, it's all they have. | ||||
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12-29-2008, 06:34 PM
| #32 | ||||
| ipsa Scientia Potestas est Pragmatist
| CNN coverage is ridiculous, they're talking about the ceasefire breaking down "months ago" but fail to mention Israel is the one who originally violated it.. they're only talking about Hamas firing rockets Talking about Israel "retaliating" ..ugh it's so disgusting. I wish they'd actually educate the American public instead of repeating half truths which provide a distorted picture. | ||||
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12-29-2008, 07:12 PM
| #33 | ||||
| Lurker Democrat
| Massacre in Gaza Hello Jajee, You mention that "So Israel and Hamas are back at it again. Hamas broke the ceasefire/truce and fired over 200 rockets into Israel. "Israel's patience wore thin and they retaliated by firing at every known Hamas installation they are aware of". Jajee, the truth is that the ceasefire had expired and was not renewed. My friend this is but yet another tactic by the Zionist leadership to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians a crime against humanity including war crimes. Let us look into your argument further. When you mention that Hamas breaking its ceasefire and them firing over 200 modernized rockets how many casualties were effected by their weapons? How can one blame Hamas for it's actions the Palestinians remain under siege with no water, food, electricity, medical supplies just to name a few etc . When Israeli war planes dropped 100 ton bombs their were 317 Palestinian casualties compared to a few Israelis casualties. From the beginning of the 1900's The Zionist movement begin the murdering of Palestinians. In the 1940's, Intelligence officers aka Mossad took over ground operations which were known as the "worst atrocities" at the time. The Mossad, not only collected data but also had the final authority to decide which villages were to be destroyed and which villagers would be executed (The Ethnic Cleansing Of Palestine by ILan Pappe). These operations were supervised by Issar Harel, first person who lead Mossad (Pappe). On the 9th of April 1948, The Massacre of Deir Yassin left at least 93 Palestinians dead not accounting for the others killed while fighting (Pappe). The Jewish soldiers forcibly entered the village of Deir Yassin and "sprayed the houses with machine-gun fire, killing many of the inhabitants". The villagers that remained were taken to a certain location and murdered in cold blood, their bodies abused while a number of women raped and then killed ( Pappe, The Saga of the Deir Yassin Massacre, Revisionism and Reality by: Daniel McGowan and Mathew C. Hogan). Looking back at history one must ask themselves ask whether Israel truly wants peace or whether they are following through with the Blueprint for Ethnic Cleansing: Plan Dalet (Pappe). In the clip below you will hear the insight into the history of the establishment of Zionism. Last edited by LetTheTruthBeTold; 12-29-2008 at 07:15 PM.. Reason: I needed to add a youtube video and I noticed it was not there after the post and also to make spaces in document | ||||
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12-29-2008, 07:20 PM
| #34 | ||||
| America Fuck Yea Election Moderator  Republican In Name Only
| Originally Posted by motivez concentration camp
 they voted for terrorists to run their shit, this is what you get. what is disgusting about a country protecting its borders? | ||||
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12-29-2008, 07:26 PM
| #35 | ||||
| ipsa Scientia Potestas est Pragmatist
| It is a concentration camp. They're forced to stay there, as Israel controls borders and even sometimes routes within the land. Medicine, food, other types of humanitarian aid are denied.. and then Israel goes in and kills civilians, women, and children by attacking densely populated areas. Israel has killed far more innocent Palestinians than suicide bombings and random rocket attacks have ever killed innocent Israelis, and Israel is responsible of many more war crimes than any organization which exists inside the Palestinian territories. The difference is we apologize and excuse Israel's barbarism. Hamas has a military wing the same way Israel has a military, they have a civilian police force, which is what's being targeted right now.. but they also do a lot with charity, building hospitals, etc. Calling them a 'terrorist organization' is a massive oversimplification of the issue. | ||||
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12-29-2008, 10:27 PM
| #36 | ||||
| America Fuck Yea Election Moderator Republican In Name Only
| Originally Posted by motivez Israel just gave them control of the land a few years ago, what more do they want?
The entire Gaza Strip is densely populated, would you prefer they just allow terrorists to attack them because they are cowards who share buildings with civilians. Maybe the civilians shouldn't have voted them into power and this wouldn't happen.  We would turn it into scorched earth if they were attacking America, if they don't want violence then don't fucking shoot at Israel. But they do want violence so enjoy it motherfuckers.
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12-29-2008, 11:19 PM
| #37 | ||||
| Member Liberal
| Originally Posted by kinggovernor Much of Gaza is aid dependant (the powerplant and hospital certainly are and almost half of the population is food aid dependant). In addition to this 80% of the Palestinian economy is dependant on the ability to trade.
Go ahead and take a guess as to how a total blockade of the region would affect the every day life of Gaza citizens. Not to mention that Israel controls Gaza's sea and air space as well as the borders (including control to a certain extent over the Rafah crossing).
Such acts constitute not only a crime under international law (the Fourth Geneva Conventions) but under Israeli domestic law as well. For such things, Israel deserves criticism as well as for practices such as collective punishment and for a complete failure to engage in any sort of productive peace process with the Abbas government.
Whatever the Bush administration says/supports must be the right and moral thing. 
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12-29-2008, 11:45 PM
| #38 | ||||
| Lurker Democrat
| Photon1001 Hamas, who is under seige by Israel has every right to defend themselves and their citizens. Picture yourself living daily without electricity, food supplies, medical treatment and shortage of medical staff, in addition to that a life of imprisonment, torture and terror from Israel you might change your view all together. Please do let the rest of the viewers on this site know your information about Palestinians being offered statehood Eleven times and what the conditions were to the statehood each time. Originally Posted by Photon1001
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12-30-2008, 12:13 AM
| #39 | ||||
| Lurker Democrat
| The timeline where the roots of this conflict first begun. Originally Posted by JaJae Here my friends are is a timeline where the roots of this conflict first begun. 1878 -- The First establishment of a Zionist colony in Palestine (Peta Tikva) 1882 -- 25,000 Jewish Immigrants settle into Palestine, primarily from eastern Europe. 1891-- Baron Maurice de Hirsch, A German, establishes the Jewish Colonization Association (JCA) in London to aid Zonist settlers in Palestine. 1896--- Der Judenstaat, a book encouraging the founding of a Jewish state was published by Jewish writer Theodor Herzl. The JCA continue their mission in the introducing a state for the Jewish people. 1897-- Zionist Congress begin to call their plans to make a home for the Jewish population. The founder of socialist Zionism Nahman Syrkin says: "Palestine must be evacuated for the Jews." 1901-- The Jewish National Fund (JNF) begins to plan to acquire land in Palestinian for the sole purpose of the land to be used by Jews to work and live on. 1904--1914-- 40,000 Zionist immigrants enter Palestine, making 6% of the population Jewish. 1905-- Israel Zangwill states Jews must drive out the Arabs or "grapple with the problem of a large alien population....." 1919-- Winston Churchill wrote "there are Jews, whom we are pledged to introduce into Palestine, and who take it for granted that the local population will be cleared out to suit their convenience." (Sources: from The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, Pappe, ILan)
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12-30-2008, 07:21 AM
| #40 | ||||
| Braccae tuae aperiuntur. Reform Party
| You're still starting your timeline late. The Jews had settled the land centuries prior and were massacred and expelled from the land. The Jews started returning to Israel long before your timeline explains. You also don't mention that the land was passed around in war and was never really the Palestinians' either. The Jews began legally purchasing land and forming their own communities. There were conflicts during this period started by both sides. The Palestinians were afraid they were losing their land due to the great influx of Jews and wanted to limit their immigration. They had laws made by the British to prevent a large influx of Jews. The Jews didn't listen and before ya know it the large zionist movement had placed a lot of Jews in the region. Again, there was conflict during this time from both sides and neither side is more right or wrong than the other. The British were being lobbied to give the Jews their own country in the region, and with tension so high in the region they knew it would mean war. So they passed the problem over to the UN who divided up the region in a cookie cutter way separating natural resources needed by both occupiers in absurd ways. Ultimately they went to war, again no side was more right or wrong. The Jews won and threw out much of the Palestinians claiming the land they wanted. The Palestinians became refugees, but the leaders of the surrounding Arab countries didn't give two craps about them. So they settled, impoverished for quite some time. Eventually the Palestinians lobbied enough of the leaders to form an attack on Israel to get their land back. It failed, in great humility, and the Arab nations were afraid of losing face to attempt again. They tried again, and again lost in humility. Since then the Palestinians have been living outside Israel firing rockets in, kidnapping, and basically terrorizing the nation. Israel has a history of "overreacting" to attacks thinking it prevents some future attacks. Nonetheless we have a region that is essentially at war. This is watered down history of the region, but it's far more balanced than anything else posted in this thread. As to others regarding the ceasefire, when Hamas gunmen are building a tunnel into Israel it is not defensive. It is a an old move out of the playbook that Israel has seen many times before. It is an act of aggression. If a terrorist group were AGAIN digging a tunnel into the US to capture or kill Americans we would expect our nation to respond to that act of aggression. You don't need some PreCogs or a magic 8 ball to figure out what the hell the Hamas gunmen were doing. All you need is a little knowledge of what has happened in the region in the past and you'd know this is not an isolated incident. As far as Hamas being a terrorist organization I absolutely believe they are. They intentionally attack civilians. Their primary focus as a group is the destruction if Israel through the means of terrorism. Their secondary focus is to achieve power and trust among their people in order to continue their plight with Israel. If the unibomber donated money to have a millions hospitals built he'd still be a terrorist. Hamas definitely does some good in the region, but that doesn't change the facts of the terrorist activities that they carry out. | ||||
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