Israel bombs Gaza killing 200+

[HughRuss]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Israel is a Jewish state. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Palestine is an Arab state and so are all the surrounding nations. The modern definition of zionism is to support Israel.

The idea of being anti-zionist is the belief that the Jews should not have a state in Palestine. That idea is about as absurd as stating that the Arabs should not have a state in Palestine. When people say Palestine shouldn't exist or should be a parking lot, suddenly everyone gets up in arms. But those SAME people have no problems criticizing the idea of Israel's existence.

They tried living together, it didn't work... because of BOTH sides. They both have the right to form their own independent governments and live in peace with whatever religions they desire. It's sad that some people would disagree with that statement.

The fact of the matter is, had the British Mandate not been passed, there would be no Israel.

It seems there was relative peace in the area prior to Jewish Homogeneity.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by LetTheTruthBeTold

It definitely backfired when the chosen government was not what US and Israel expected nor wanted.

Correct. They were hoping the Palestinians would elect a government who would work towards international diplomacy and take care of its own citizens rather than promote suicide bombs and other terrorist activities against their neighbor and use their civilians as human shields. It's ironic considering Israel helped form Hamas and now they have to deal with Hamas as the government of Palestine.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by HughRuss

The fact of the matter is, had the British Mandate not been passed, there would be no Israel.

Not necessarily true. When the British ruled the land they attempted to slow the Jews from moving into Palestine. They were coming in by the boatloads (literally) and purchasing land. They created subcommunities intertwined with Arabs within Palestine. It was the UN (not England) who partitioned the land and gave some to the Jews and some to the Arabs. This was done after many Jews had already moved to the region and there had been plenty of violence.

It seems there was relative peace in the area prior to Jewish Homogeneity.

Not true at all. When the Jewish population exploded in Palestine there was plenty of violence perpetrated by both sides. It was obvious they couldn't live in peace together, hence the reason England turned the land over to the UN. They didn't know what to do with the region and didn't want to be responsible for what would happen. Once the UN had control of the region they royally screwed it up. In all honesty, there probably wasn't too much the UN could have done to keep peace at that point, since tensions were already so high between the two groups. However, the land divides they created were absolutely absurd and made no sense. This led to an immediate war over land supported by both groups. And there have been consequent wars since then in attempt to regain land.

[LetTheTruthBeTold]

1. What are these weapons that Israeli tested on the people of Gaza?
2. Why is Israel refusing to give that information about what weapons that they tested on the civilians of Gaza?
3. How can civilians be treated if doctors are not told what the weapons that Israel used and many are dying painful deaths? This is the working of a monster not a human being aka Israel.

Even after the effects of this war on Gaza the innocent civilians fight to survive the wounds they have that melts away their flesh.

The Doctors of Gaza released this statement

“We noticed burns different from anything we had ever dealt with before,” one burns specialist at Gaza's al-Shifa Hospital told Amnesty International. After some hours the burns became wider and deeper, gave off an offensive odor and then they began to smoke. We have many cases of amputations and vascular reconstructions where patients would be expected to recover in the normal way. But to our surprise many of them died an hour or two after operation. It is dramatic.

Take a look at this site below and you will see only minor injuries in comparison to more graphic pictures that I came across.

Be ware these pictures released from Amnesty International are quite graphic but if gives you a good picture of the effects of this unknown weapons and ammunitions that were used.



Norman G. Finkelstein

[Chip]

All I can say here, is that there are a lot of people that will believe anything that is said on the internet, by any propaganda group, if its what they wanted to hear in the first place and just gives them more ammunition. There is so much bogus crap flying around this thread about atrocities, and experimental weapons testing, and death camps, Nazi comparisons....blah blah blah.
Just a word of advice, think critically about what you read. And realize that even the true stories are often inflated to make them sound more spectacular.

HEADLINE: OJ KILLS AGAIN



small print: Florida man chokes to death on a glass of orange juice.

And a perfect example of truth being twisted...Ban Dihydrogenmonoxide

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Chip

All I can say here, is that there are a lot of people that will believe anything that is said on the internet, by any propaganda group, if its what they wanted to hear in the first place and just gives them more ammunition. There is so much bogus crap flying around this thread about atrocities, and experimental weapons testing, and death camps, Nazi comparisons....blah blah blah.
Just a word of advice, think critically about what you read. And realize that even the true stories are often inflated to make them sound more spectacular.

HEADLINE: OJ KILLS AGAIN



small print: Florida man chokes to death on a glass of orange juice.

And a perfect example of truth being twisted...Ban Dihydrogenmonoxide

The use of White Phosphorous in violation of International Law has been well documented in by third party organizations.

[C4Casey]

Originally Posted by motivez

The use of White Phosphorous in violation of International Law has been well documented in by third party organizations.

The use of White Phosphorus is not in violation of international law. We used it in Vietnam all the time, and more recently in the Battle of Fallujah. Have some countries signed treaties banning the use of WP? Sure. That does not make the use of WP illegal, since Israel is obviously not a signatory and the Geneva and Hague conventions don't ban it. Alot of times, if there are a bunch of countries that don't have a certain type of weapon, they'll all sign treaties banning it to put political pressure on potential adversaries to ban it as well. Take the Cluster Munitions Ban. Most signatories of that treaty do not posses cluster munitions, and some (like Lebanon) have had cluster munitions used against them. The ban did succeed in convincing some users of cluster munitions (namely Great Britian), to ban them as well. But the primary users of cluster munitions, those being the U.S., Russia, and Israel, refused to sign it. That's because doing so would take away a significant military advantage over their opponents. The same is true, albeit to a lesser extent, concerning White Phosphorus.

[motivez]

The Geneva Conventions explicitly ban the way Israel used it during their invasion of Gaza after they violated the ceasefire.

Under Protocol III of the Convention of Certain Conventional Weapons:

Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons
Protocol III
Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Incendiary Weapons.
Geneva, 10 October 1980

Article 1
Definitions

For the purpose of this Protocol:

1. Incendiary weapon" means any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target. (a) Incendiary weapons can take the form of, for example, flame throwers, fougasses, shells, rockets, grenades, mines, bombs and other containers of incendiary substances.
   (b) Incendiary weapons do not include:
   (i) Munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signalling systems;
   (ii) Munitions designed to combine penetration, blast or fragmentation effects with an additional incendiary effect, such as armour-piercing projectiles, fragmentation shells, explosive bombs and similar combined-effects munitions in which the incendiary effect is not specifically designed to cause burn injury to persons, but to be used against military objectives, such as armoured vehicles, aircraft and installations or facilities.
2. Concentration of civilians" means any concentration of civilians, be it permanent or temporary, such as in inhabited parts of cities, or inhabited towns or villages, or as in camps or columns of refugees or evacuees, or groups of nomads.
3. Military objective" means, so far as objects are concerned, any object which by its nature, location, purpose or use makes an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage.
4. Civilian objects" are all objects which are not military objectives as defined in paragraph 3.
5. Feasible precautions" are those precautions which are practicable or practically possible taking into account all circumstances ruling at the time, including humanitarian and military considerations.

Article 2
Protection of civilians and civilian objects

1. It is prohibited in all circumstances to make the civilian population as such, individual civilians or civilian objects the object of attack by incendiary weapons.
2. It is prohibited in all circumstances to make any military objective located within a concentration of civilians the object of attack by air-delivered incendiary weapons.
3. It is further prohibited to make any military objective located within a concentration of civilians the object of attack by means of incendiary weapons other than air-delivered incendiary weapons, except when such military objective is clearly separated from the concentration of civilians and all feasible precautions are taken with a view to limiting the incendiary effects to the military objective and to avoiding, and in any event to minimizing, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects.
4. It is prohibited to make forests or other kinds of plant cover the object of attack by incendiary weapons except when such natural elements are used to cover, conceal or camouflage combatants or other military objectives, or are themselves military objectives.

Not being a signatory doesn't mean it's not in violation of International Law, just not like not recognizing the ICC doesn't mean you can't be prosecuted by them.

Personally I'm hoping the courts will get involved and prosecute people in Israel for war crimes, because no country should be able to do what Israel did to so many innocent people in this conflict with no consequences.

If so, they may not be able to bring them to justice as long as they stay in Israel, but they'll never be able to travel.

[C4Casey]

Originally Posted by motivez

The Geneva Conventions explicitly ban the way Israel used it during their invasion of Gaza after they violated the ceasefire.

Under Protocol III of the Convention of Certain Conventional Weapons:

Not being a signatory doesn't mean it's not in violation of International Law, just not like not recognizing the ICC doesn't mean you can't be prosecuted by them.

Personally I'm hoping the courts will get involved and prosecute people in Israel for war crimes, because no country should be able to do what Israel did to so many innocent people in this conflict with no consequences.

If so, they may not be able to bring them to justice as long as they stay in Israel, but they'll never be able to travel.

WP is not used as an incindiary weapon, as others in previous posts and threads have already discussed. It is mainly used as a target marker. If I wanted to use an incindiary weapon, I'd use napalm. If you're a commander using WP as an incindiary weapon, then you're an idiot.

[C4Casey]

Originally Posted by motivez

The Geneva Conventions explicitly ban the way Israel used it during their invasion of Gaza after they violated the ceasefire.

Under Protocol III of the Convention of Certain Conventional Weapons:

Not being a signatory doesn't mean it's not in violation of International Law, just not like not recognizing the ICC doesn't mean you can't be prosecuted by them.

Personally I'm hoping the courts will get involved and prosecute people in Israel for war crimes, because no country should be able to do what Israel did to so many innocent people in this conflict with no consequences.

If so, they may not be able to bring them to justice as long as they stay in Israel, but they'll never be able to travel.

And BTW, the WP was not air-delivered into Gaza, it was fired using artillery. So if they were firing at a clear military target, even if they were using it as an incindary weapon, it would be legal.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by C4Casey

And BTW, the WP was not air-delivered into Gaza, it was fired using artillery. So if they were firing at a clear military target, even if they were using it as an incindary weapon, it would be legal.

What part of "It is prohibited in all circumstances"
are you ignoring for that to make sense?

Again, their use of it blatantly violated the protocol, they didn't just use it on military targets outside of the civilian population, nor did they limit their targeting in civilian areas to military targets.

One of the UN compounds they bombed was hit with White Phosphorus, for example.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by motivez

What part of "It is prohibited in all circumstances"
are you ignoring for that to make sense?

I think he meant this part

"...by air-delivered..."

Those munitions weren't dropped by plane, therefore technically, it seems, legal.

[motivez]

'Phosphorus wounds' alarm Gazans

By Aleem Maqbool
BBC News, Gaza City


Sabah Abu Halima suffered terrible burns on her arms, legs and torso

Staring straight ahead and rocking steadily backwards and forwards in her hospital bed, Sabah Abu Halima lists the fate of each of her nine children.

"Abed, 14 years old, was decapitated," she says. "Shaheed, one year and three months, was in my arms when the fire took her…"
Sabah explains that her husband and four of her children died when their house in northern Gaza was shelled during the recent Israeli offensive.
Many of the rooms in that house now lay dark and empty - blackened by fire.
The light fittings and power sockets have melted down the walls.

These burns were very severe, very deep, and became deeper and wider over time

Dr Nafiz Abu Shabaan


UN accuses Israel over phosphorus

A shaft of light coming from the ceiling of the corridor, and mangled steel, marks the entry point of one of the missiles.

Scrawled, in Arabic, on the wall of a bedroom is the statement: "From the Israeli Defence Forces, we are sorry."

But on the next wall, there is a patch of white where, Sabah's 20-year-old son Mahmoud tells us, had also been the words "nice underwear". He says he scrubbed them off in anger.

'Strange burns'

Hundreds were killed in the 22-day Israeli offensive, but it is the manner in which Sabah's relatives lost their lives, and the weapon used, that has attracted attention.


Sabah's family say Israeli troops wrote an apology in Arabic on their wall

Sabah herself has suffered terrible burns on her arms, legs and torso and is considerable pain.

"There was fire, and so much white smoke," she says. "The missile melted my children. My daughter-in-law melted in front of my eyes."

Dr Nafiz Abu Shabaan, the head of the unit in which Sabah is being treated, says he has seen many victims with what he described as "strange burns".
"These burns were very severe, very deep, and became deeper and wider over time," he says. "In some cases, smoke came out of the wound, even after hours."

The cause of these types of injuries is believed, by visiting medical officials, to be Israel's use of shells containing white phosphorus.

Incendiary weapon

In another part of the city, at a former security compound flattened by the Israeli bombardment, Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch, points out evidence that white phosphorus had been used.

Mobile phone footage of an Israeli attack on a UN school

"We're standing here right next to an M825A1, which is the US designation for their white phosphorus shell," he says.

"Manufactured in the US and sold to Israel, the shell here is unexploded, although it's cracked and you can see the phosphorus pouring out in kind of this yellow-orange colour."

"Around the area there are also some white phosphorus felt pieces," he adds.

"As the weapon explodes in mid-air, 116 pieces of felt doused in white phosphorus fall on a large area. These pieces are littered around here. If you kicked them open, they would begin to smoke and potentially reignite."


It's important that we investigate the use of white phosphorus, because it does appear that it was used incorrectly in a clear breach of Geneva Conventions

Marc Garlasco, military analyst
Human Rights Watch

Controversial as it is, white phosphorus is not illegal, at least in an open battlefield setting, where it is used to mask troop movements, or set on fire areas of high brush that need clearing.

But the international convention on the use of incendiary weapons says it should not be used where there is a possibility of hitting civilians.

The compound sticks to human skin and will burn right through to the bone, causing death or leaving survivors with painful wounds which are slow to heal.

United Nations officials say it was used in the shelling of a school in which hundreds of civilians were taking refuge from the fighting, and fired at the UN's main headquarters in Gaza.

Eyewitnesses and victims talk of it being used on many other occasions in built-up areas.

Internal investigation

After initially denying that white phosphorus shells were fired in Gaza, some Israeli military officials have now acknowledged its use.

Analysts say the distinctively shaped plumes are indicative of white phosphorus

The army says it has started an internal investigation, the insistence being until now that no weapons were used illegally.

Human rights groups have meanwhile started their own research.

"It's important that we investigate the use of white phosphorus, because it does appear that it was used incorrectly in a clear breach of Geneva Conventions, " says Mr Garlasco.

"But as grave as the injuries caused by white phosphorus are, there are a number of weapons that were used in Gaza that killed and injured an awful lot more people," he adds.

"We have to look at the full variety of weapons that were used here, how they were employed and how they impacted on the civilian population."

BBC NEWS | Middle East | 'Phosphorus wounds' alarm Gazans

There's a video on this page:

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israeli strike on school filmed

Mobile phone footage from Gaza shows the moment on 17 January when a UN school in Beit Lahiya was hit by shellfire on the last day of Israel's three-week offensive.
The burning lumps are consistent with the incendiary device white phosphorus (WP) - which is banned from use within areas of civilian concentration under international weapons agreements.

The UN says at least two artillery rounds emitting phosphorus landed inside the school where 1,600 Palestinians were seeking refuge from the bombardment. A high explosive shell also hit one of the school buildings, killing two boys, aged five and seven.

The Israeli army says the weapons it used in Gaza were all legal, but has launched an investigation into allegations of illegal use of WP.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

I think he meant this part

"...by air-delivered..."

Those munitions weren't dropped by plane, therefore technically, it seems, legal.

Look at the pictures I just posted and tell me that's not "air delivered"



Even if you want to make an arugment that artillery shells aren't "air delivered" (I guess they're gun powder delivered? Wouldn't that make bombs dropped from a plane gravity delivered? ):

It is further prohibited to make any military objective located within a concentration of civilians the object of attack by means of incendiary weapons other than air-delivered incendiary weapons, except when such military objective is clearly separated from the concentration of civilians and all feasible precautions are taken with a view to limiting the incendiary effects to the military objective and to avoiding, and in any event to minimizing, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects.

The UN school and refugee camp where 1600 civilians were hiding are obviously not "clearly separated"

[JaJae]

For what its worth..
BBC NEWS | Middle East | EU envoy lays Gaza blame on Hamas

EU envoy lays Gaza blame on Hamas
A senior European Union official touring war-torn Gaza has blamed the ruling militant movement Hamas for the humanitarian crisis there.

Humanitarian aid chief Louis Michel called the destruction left by Israel's offensive "abominable", but said Hamas bore "overwhelming responsibility".

He said there would be no dialogue with with the "terrorist" movement until it gave up violence and recognised Israel.

He also announced emergency aid for Gaza worth more than US $70m (£50m).

US President Barack Obama, meanwhile, dispatched his new Middle East envoy, George Mitchell, on his debut mission to the region having briefed him to engage "vigorously" to forge "genuine progress" in peace talks.

Sick of paying

Touring some of Gaza's worst-hit areas of Israel's 22-day assault which killed about 1,300 Palestinians, including 400 children, Mr Michel described the situation as "abominable, indescribable".

"At this time we have to also recall the overwhelming responsibility of Hamas," he said.

"I intentionally say this here - Hamas is a terrorist movement and it has to be denounced as such."
Thirteen Israelis were killed in the conflict, and Mr Michel later visited the southern Israeli town of Sderot, the target of Palestinian militant rocket fire.

There, he called on Israel to lift its blockade of Gaza and accused both sides of violating humanitarian law.

"Please open the crossings, you have to broaden the range of products that you let in," he urged Israel's authorities. "We, the EU, condemn Qassam attacks and military options which target the civilian population."

The former Belgian foreign minister insisted there would be no dialogue with Hamas, saying its use of terrorism against Israeli civilians meant it was not a legitimate resistance movement.

Some aid agencies have expressed doubts about how effective a reconstruction drive in Gaza can be without the involvement of Hamas, which controls the territory, says the BBC's Aleem Maqbool in Gaza.

Announcing the extra aid, Mr Michel said people in the EU were sick of paying for the same infrastructure being destroyed over and over again in Israeli military action.

The EU is the main donor to the Palestinians, having given three billion euros since 2000, Mr Michel said.

"Every year, we spend 600 to 700m euros. Today we decided on a supplementary payment of 60m euros."

'Reinvigorate process'

US envoy George Mitchell is to visit Israel, the West Bank, Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia during a week-long tour, with European stops including Paris and London, said state department spokesman Robert Wood.

He said Mr Mitchell would meet "senior officials to discuss the peace process and the situation in Gaza".

It remained unclear whether Mr Mitchell would travel to the Gaza Strip.

Separately, EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana said he was heading to the Middle East to join efforts to cement a permanent cease-fire between Hamas and Israel.

He said he would spend a week in the region, starting with meetings with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak in Cairo on Tuesday.

Israeli and Palestinian faction representatives have visited Cairo for talks with Egyptian officials since a non-negotiated ceasefire came into effect on 18 January.

Hamas wants an end of Israel's punishing blockade of Gaza.

Israel, which will hold a general elections on 10 February, wants a long-term ceasefire and curbs on Hamas rearming.

Basically the European Union Humanitarian Aid Chief says Israel's response was too strong. He also blames Hamas for the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and says they're tired of paying for the same infrastructure over and over again. He considers Hamas to be a terrorist organization and not a legitimate government worthy of dialogue in this matter. They're going to throw $60m at the problem for now. Typically they spend $600-700m per year on Gaza.

[C4Casey]

Originally Posted by motivez

Look at the pictures I just posted and tell me that's not "air delivered"



Even if you want to make an arugment that artillery shells aren't "air delivered" (I guess they're gun powder delivered? Wouldn't that make bombs dropped from a plane gravity delivered? ):

The UN school and refugee camp where 1600 civilians were hiding are obviously not "clearly separated"

It's not air-delivered. Air-delivered means it's dropped from an aircraft. Those are artillery rounds.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by C4Casey

It's not air-delivered. Air-delivered means it's dropped from an aircraft. Those are artillery rounds.

I already pointed out why that's irrelevant.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by motivez

The UN school and refugee camp where 1600 civilians were hiding are obviously not "clearly separated"

Even those numbers are being questioned.

What really is behind the numbers reported on the number of civilian casualties in the Gaza Strip? Italian newspaper Corriere Della Sera reported Thursday that a doctor working in Gaza's Shifa Hospital claimed that Hamas has intentionally inflated the number of casualties resulting from Israel's Operation Cast Lead.


"The number of deceased stands at no more than 500 to 600. Most of them are youths between the ages of 17 to 23 who were recruited to the ranks of Hamas, who sent them to the slaughter," according to the newspaper article.


The doctor wished to remain unidentified, out of fear for his life.



'Mostly armed teenagers'

A Tal al-Hawa resident told the newspaper's reporter, "Armed Hamas men sought out a good position for provoking the Israelis. There were mostly teenagers, aged 16 or 17, and armed. They couldn't do a thing against a tank or a jet. They knew they are much weaker, but they fired at our houses so that they could blame Israel for war crimes."

The reporter for the Italian newspaper also quoted reporters in the Strip who told of Hamas' exaggerated figures, "We have already said to Hamas commanders – why do you insist on inflating the number of victims?"

These same reporters mentioned that the truth that will come out is likely to be similar to what occurred in Operation Defensive Shield in Jenin. "Then, there was first talk of 1,500 deaths. But then it turned out that there were only 54, 45 of which were armed men," the Palestinian reporters told the Italian newspaper.

[LetTheTruthBeTold]

Originally Posted by JaJae

For what its worth..
BBC NEWS | Middle East | EU envoy lays Gaza blame on Hamas

Basically the European Union Humanitarian Aid Chief says Israel's response was too strong. He also blames Hamas for the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and says they're tired of paying for the same infrastructure over and over again. He considers Hamas to be a terrorist organization and not a legitimate government worthy of dialogue in this matter. They're going to throw $60m at the problem for now. Typically they spend $600-700m per year on Gaza.

Lets introduce you to 4 year-old Samar who was shot in the back by Israeli soldiers at close range 49 ft away right in the back. The bullets damaged her spine and she may not walk again but she keeps a smile because she is a warrior. Samar's two older sisters aged seven and two were shot dead by Israel's. Don't tell me they could not tell Samar was a child from that close distance?

Samara's father insisted that he was not Hamas that he worked for the Palestinian Authority and was a member of Fatah had this to say

There were no fighters here," he added, picking up crisp bags printed with Hebrew lettering that the soldiers seemed to have left behind. "Do you think soldiers eat crisps sitting on their tanks when there is incoming fire?

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by LetTheTruthBeTold

Lets introduce you to 4 year-old Samar who was shot in the back by Israeli soldiers at close range 49 ft away right in the back. The bullets damaged her spine and she may not walk again but she keeps a smile because she is a warrior. Samar's two older sisters aged seven and two were shot dead by Israel's. Don't tell me they could not tell Samar was a child from that close distance?

Samara's father insisted that he was not Hamas that he worked for the Palestinian Authority and was a member of Fatah had this to say

You're right. I don't think soldiers could have mistaken the child for a Hamas fighter. Which makes me think it could have been Hamas that shot her. There seems to be a pattern of it.

From the story above.

They knew they are much weaker, but they fired at our houses so that they could blame Israel for war crimes.

Somewhere here someone posted video's of Hamas killing their own people, so I wouldn't put it past them.