Israel bombs Gaza killing 200+

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Swift-Bass

Why would the public freely and knowingly elect a part that supports state sponsored terrorism?

You're classifying is as terrorism. They classify it as freedom fighting. I don't agree with their methods, but when they're fighting what's arguably the best army on earth.. who's funded by the US with the most advanced weapon systems on the planet.. and have what amount to pea shooters to retaliate with, they're going to do what they're able to do.

Again, if you or I lived under those conditions, and I encourage you to read more about the daily suffering of people who live there, you'd want to fight as well.

So long as Israel is an occupying force in Palestinian lands, subjecting them to harsh military oppression, refuses to let them have autonomy over what lands they have.. including port / border control, etc.. and freely enter their territories to bulldoze neighborhoods and build settlements on top of them, launch aggressive military raids and kill civilians.. and then deny them food, water, medicine, fuel, and other forms of humanitarian aid.. they will fight back.

And so would you and I if we were in that situation and forced to live under those conditions. It's a normal human response to want to fight oppression.

When that ends, their society can progress. It wont be something that happens over night, but it will start to take place.

[kinggovernor]

Originally Posted by motivez

Have you ever spent time with anyone who's lived over there for an extended period? Known people who've volunteered in the refugee camps (which Israel has bombed)? I have, and the picture of what happens on a daily basis is so different from the limited view we get to see on TV here.

I have family members who go every year, and I can see what they are trying do. Yes I understand that pretty much every either uses or abuses the people in Gaza but that does not ever excuse their methods of acting out.

[kinggovernor]

Originally Posted by motivez

You're classifying is as terrorism. They classify it as freedom fighting. I don't agree with their methods, but when they're fighting what's arguably the best army on earth.. who's funded by the US with the most advanced weapon systems on the planet.. and have what amount to pea shooters to retaliate with, they're going to do what they're able to do.

there is no freedom in suicide.

[Dylith]

Originally Posted by Swift-Bass

Hold up. You're saying that the legitimate elected government is sponsoring/allowing rockets to be shot inot Israel? If that's the case then Israel is more then justified in their actions since they have to go against the government not just a "terrorist faction".

We have no problems with Israel going after military targets such as those attacking Israel with rockets, but specifically targeting non-military targets is a direct violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Even if they do have that Hamas tag, people cannot be targeted under the law due to their political afiliation.

I wasn't suggesting anyting aobut where to put their town halls and what not. But if the government is what's causing the problem, where would you suggest they strike?

The launch sites for the rockets. Which may cause collateral damage which would suck, You have also heard none of us complain about the targeting of smuggling tunnels along the Gaza/Egypt border now have you?

[Dylith]

Originally Posted by JaJae

So Israel has to wait until Palestine uses their tactics to kill/kidnap Israelis before they respond? The "precogs" argument is laughable at best. Anyone who has been following the events in the middle east doesn't need a precog to know what is going on when there are armed terrorists digging a tunnel towards Israel. The idea that Israel should wait until those terrorists manage to get across the border in their underground tunnel and open fire is quite silly. Israel should protect their homeland. We would do the same thing if Al Qaeda were digging a tunnel into America through the Mexican border... especially if they had used that move half a dozen times in the past few years.

The fact is that until that tunnel (if there even was one, all we have is Israel's word for it) comes to the border Israel has no authority to attack it under the ceasfire.

By the way, you forgot about the blockade which is a direct violation of the ceasefire every minute and every day it was in place.

[kinggovernor]

FAO: Dylith, Motivez and other Hamas supporters

If you could please post some links of readings that made your minds up about the issue that would be great.

Also I would ask, if you were PM of Israel how would you react to mortar/rocket attacks?

[motivez]

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

I have family members who go every year, and I can see what they are trying do. Yes I understand that pretty much every either uses or abuses the people in Gaza but that does not ever excuse their methods of acting out.

Nor have I excused their methods. I've said several times in this thread their methods are deplorable.

But they're fighting for their freedom and independence and the right to live their lives without having an Israeli military occupation and oppression hanging over them, and that's a just cause.

[kombayn]

Originally Posted by HughRuss

Actually, no, he's got a point. Israel is the closest representation to a terrorist state, and America backs 'em. Albeit, both Muslims and Jews are to blame for the atrocities, but a governmental ceasefire is a farce.

I would like to see links attesting to this version, though.

(Oh, and Israel is not a representative state, despite their claims to be... they represent Jewish hegemony, and Islamic suppression; while in other countries, the very same thing can be said, but precisely the opposite: Jewish suppression, Islamic domination).

I don't agree with what the State of Israel does, but to say it's some big Jewish conspiracy is retarded. It's Israel's government that needs to criticized not "Zionists" a.k.a. "Anyone who is Jewish." being part of a big massive conspiracy.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by kombayn

I don't agree with what the State of Israel does, but to say it's some big Jewish conspiracy is retarded. It's Israel's government that needs to criticized not "Zionists" a.k.a. "Anyone who is Jewish." being part of a big massive conspiracy.

I don't think Zionist means what you think it means.

Zionist doesn't mean Jewish. There are plenty of non-Zionist Jews.

[kombayn]

I know what Zionists (basically Pro-Israel Jewish people who continue to help trying to secure the "homeland" for Jewish people) are but when certain people throw that term around (people who think Obama isn't a U.S. citizen etc). It's race related, they truly don't know what it means. Zionists to those people mean "Really rich Jewish people that want to control the world." which is ignorant by all standards and more conspiracy theory rants.

[Dylith]

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

then it would be helpful to make peace with their neighbors.

and rocket fire/mortar attacks doesn't affect the every day life of Israeli citizens?

see point #1

So basically you have ignored evrything that Israel is doing in terms of human rights abuses.

Israel actively stopped the peace process with the pull out plan in the first place. The Israeli government has shown no real desire to engage in productive peace plans and has failed to live up to any promises that it has made under the peace process. Despite Abbas meeting all of Israel's pre-conditions. I do no condone the rocket attacks, but Israel is empowering Hamas by doing nothing for statehood in the West Bank.

It won't even halt settlement expansion which is suppose to be the first phase of the Road Map.

they are part of the war effort, they are legit military targets.

no they do not.

No, no they are not, according to section II article 13 of the Fourth Geneva Convention persons may not be targeted for their political beliefs.

Nor can they be targeted if they are taking no active part in direct hostilies against Israel which they aren't as those buildings and sites are not launching zones, nor weapon storage facilities or even military training grounds. Especially civic centers and police HQ and things such as the power plant and the metal foundry.

the collective punishment idea is a joke, it can be applied to any war.

Yeah, it was such a big joke that Israel ratified laws listing it was a war crime.

I do, perhaps you could enlighten us with some of your wisdom?

Hamas ran under a platform of a two state solution with Israel during the elections. It dropped its call for Israel's destruction and advocated a ten year peace deal. Hamas further renounced the use of suicide bombings and one support by showing itself to be a less corrupt organization than the PLO.

Hamas also one widespread support due to its charity work and the fact that it was able to construct and run large scale social programs, schools, hospitals, religious institutions, etc.

Obama said it himself

Right, because that makes it better?

[Dylith]

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

FAO: Dylith, Motivez and other Hamas supporters

Sorry to disappoint you but just because I criticize Israel for its human rights abuses in no way means that I support Hamas.

If you could please post some links of readings that made your minds up about the issue that would be great.

That would includes hundreds of links videos and even books. I have been following the situation for years, I take stuff from all over especially Israeli sources such as the Israeli institute for human rights, J-Post, Haaretz, the Israeli insider. I also take stuff from Al-Jazeera, the United Nations and the World Bank as well as the Gaurdian and any other place that I happen to run across this stuff.

Also I would ask, if you were PM of Israel how would you react to mortar/rocket attacks?

1.) by actually engaging in a peace process with the Abbas government so as to marginalize Hamas rather than the group that isn't attacking me.

2.) by targeting the rocket launch sites and the fighters firing them as well as the tunnels which Israel has done, the problem is that that's not all Israel is targeting.

[Dylith]

Originally Posted by kombayn

I don't agree with what the State of Israel does, but to say it's some big Jewish conspiracy is retarded. It's Israel's government that needs to criticized not "Zionists" a.k.a. "Anyone who is Jewish." being part of a big massive conspiracy.

The word zionist being used does not indicate a conspiracy it represents an idea, an idea and now a reality that plays a very large role in human rights abuses and the continuation of this conflict.

And Zionist =! Jew, most zionists in the US are actually Christians.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

there is no freedom in suicide.

What does that have to do with the current situation?

Again, Israel has killed many more innocent people than Hamas and Hezbollah combined.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by kombayn

I know what Zionists (basically Pro-Israel Jewish people who continue to help trying to secure the "homeland" for Jewish people) are but when certain people throw that term around (people who think Obama isn't a U.S. citizen etc). It's race related, they truly don't know what it means. Zionists to those people mean "Really rich Jewish people that want to control the world." which is ignorant by all standards and more conspiracy theory rants.

Again, I don't think that means what you think it means. It has nothing to do with a conspiracy and it doesn't necessarily describe someone who's Jewish.

Although I'll admit it's used in the rhetoric of some people who are against jews in general, it's not a racist word.

[Dylith]

Originally Posted by Swift-Bass

Some others have addressed the whole "precogs" point. But this is a Holy war, pure and simple.

No, it is not that simple, It is primarily ethnic based conflict mixed with religious undertones. Muslims aren't the only ones against Israel (Fatah for example is a secular party) it is more Arab based. ISrael doesn't want non-Jewish populations which leads to permanent occupation like we see rather than a multi-ethnic single state.

For every wrong the Israelies have done I can give you one the palistenians have done.

That, in no way, deminishes the seriousness of Israel's abuses though.

The question here is if these attacks are state sponsored? If they are, why on God's green earth should they let up the blockade?

Because the blockade specifically targets the civilian population (in order to put pressure on the ruling body) which constitutes collective punishment which clearly violates the Fourth Geneva Convention of which Israel is a party.

Yes, it's cruel but it's a national security issue. They don't know how that aid is going to be used and what not.

It is purely humanitarian aid, food, medical supplies and the like it is distributed by UN officials, there are no grounds for barring it other than for collective punishment.

[LetTheTruthBeTold]

Originally Posted by Swift-Bass

I ignored it because it's futile.

Some others have addressed the whole "precogs" point. But this is a Holy war, pure and simple. For every wrong the Israelies have done I can give you one the palistenians have done.

The question here is if these attacks are state sponsored? If they are, why on God's green earth should they let up the blockade? Yes, it's cruel but it's a national security issue. They don't know how that aid is going to be used and what not.

Seriously motivez, I'm not saying Israel is innocent. But they are acting in the best interests for their nation. How would you react? How would you have handled the situation in 2006?

This situation is much more complex then the latest cease fire. So to keep it in the boundaries of it is a bit inane.

Israel killed women and children. That's 100% wrong. But they had no choice. Why? Because hamas consistantly hides behind civilians hopeing Israel won't attack due to world opinion. It seems Israel no longer cares about world opinion.

Israel killed women and children. That's 100% wrong. But they had no choice. Why? Because hamas consistantly hides behind civilians hopeing Israel won't attack due to world opinion. It seems Israel no longer cares about world opinion.[/quote]

What is all this about Hamas hiding behind it's citizens they are proud people and are not cowards like the Israeli offical who ducked when he heard the sound of a qassam missle in Israel. Hamas, is not afraid from you or I or the Israelis. It is time that erased all that false information you have stored in your head and you stood up and against the attrocities in Palestine and not side with Israel especially with their bad track record in history. All we ask is that you do your research stop listening to what Fox the sewer channel feeds your mind.

Swift, when you say that Israel "they are acting in the best interests for their nation." What best interests are the Israel acting on monetary interests of killing innocent Palestinians in order to steal their land from them and make it their own home. Whatever happened to people acting on what is moral and right.

Hamas, is defending itself from the enemy which is Israel and if no one is going to help them fight for their citizens and their rights to be free of occcupation who better than they to take the task onto themselves.

Trust me if you were in the same situation as citizens of Gaza you were imprisoned in your own home, have limited access to food, electricity, medical treatment, and no aid was allowed to be brought into help the citizens you certainly would think twice before making this remark "But they are acting in the best interests for their nation."

No one would want to imagine what life would be like if we were all the people of Gaza . Why don't you imagine living in Gaza I am sure would certainly see crystal clear that Hamas ,is standing up their citizens.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by Swift-Bass

Yep I agree. War sucks.

However, when the enemy specifically uses the public as a shield, what are you supposed to do?

I hate this stupid fucking argument. Israel has a choice. They don't HAVE to lob missiles blindly into civilian areas. They can grab all the troops they need, go door to door and fight against the actual people that shoot at them. Period.

[HughRuss]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

I hate this stupid fucking argument. Israel has a choice. They don't HAVE to lob missiles blindly into civilian areas. They can grab all the troops they need, go door to door and fight against the actual people that shoot at them. Period.

Yeah, Gaza strip is just a stone's throw (a missile's lob) away. It's not as though it'd take enormous amounts of resources to execute such a plan.

[LetTheTruthBeTold]

Originally Posted by JaJae

You're still starting your timeline late. The Jews had settled the land centuries prior and were massacred and expelled from the land. The Jews started returning to Israel long before your timeline explains. You also don't mention that the land was passed around in war and was never really the Palestinians' either. The Jews began legally purchasing land and forming their own communities. There were conflicts during this period started by both sides. The Palestinians were afraid they were losing their land due to the great influx of Jews and wanted to limit their immigration. They had laws made by the British to prevent a large influx of Jews. The Jews didn't listen and before ya know it the large zionist movement had placed a lot of Jews in the region. Again, there was conflict during this time from both sides and neither side is more right or wrong than the other. The British were being lobbied to give the Jews their own country in the region, and with tension so high in the region they knew it would mean war. So they passed the problem over to the UN who divided up the region in a cookie cutter way separating natural resources needed by both occupiers in absurd ways. Ultimately they went to war, again no side was more right or wrong. The Jews won and threw out much of the Palestinians claiming the land they wanted. The Palestinians became refugees, but the leaders of the surrounding Arab countries didn't give two craps about them. So they settled, impoverished for quite some time. Eventually the Palestinians lobbied enough of the leaders to form an attack on Israel to get their land back. It failed, in great humility, and the Arab nations were afraid of losing face to attempt again. They tried again, and again lost in humility. Since then the Palestinians have been living outside Israel firing rockets in, kidnapping, and basically terrorizing the nation. Israel has a history of "overreacting" to attacks thinking it prevents some future attacks. Nonetheless we have a region that is essentially at war. This is watered down history of the region, but it's far more balanced than anything else posted in this thread.

As to others regarding the ceasefire, when Hamas gunmen are building a tunnel into Israel it is not defensive. It is a an old move out of the playbook that Israel has seen many times before. It is an act of aggression. If a terrorist group were AGAIN digging a tunnel into the US to capture or kill Americans we would expect our nation to respond to that act of aggression. You don't need some PreCogs or a magic 8 ball to figure out what the hell the Hamas gunmen were doing. All you need is a little knowledge of what has happened in the region in the past and you'd know this is not an isolated incident.

As far as Hamas being a terrorist organization I absolutely believe they are. They intentionally attack civilians. Their primary focus as a group is the destruction if Israel through the means of terrorism. Their secondary focus is to achieve power and trust among their people in order to continue their plight with Israel. If the unibomber donated money to have a millions hospitals built he'd still be a terrorist. Hamas definitely does some good in the region, but that doesn't change the facts of the terrorist activities that they carry out.

Jajee,
please do let me know where you get your information from because a lot of what your saying is untrue here.

Around 2500BC The first people who lived in Palestine were Ammonites and Canaanites who settled their not the Israelis. The Canaanites built most of the towns in Palestine around 200 towns. The people that came a around (1550 BC-1200 BC) became known as Palestinians who built the cities of Gaza, Ashod, Jet, Aqround and Ashkelon. Lod, Saklash. The Palestinians named their land Palestine. The israelis my friend came later in history.

About the Israelis living in Palestine and getting massacred and expelled from the land Where did you get this information from because I would really question your points here.

About Hamas having their own tunnels that is within Palestinian borders not Israeli borders so, it really is none of your business or mine to speak about the tunnels which were used to get in medical supplies and food which Israel denied the people of Gaza.

Your certainly blind not to see the atrocities that the Israelis have committed to the Palestinians today and in history. Israel murdered close to 400 Palestinians in these past few days compared to 3 Israelis. And you believe that Hamas is a terrorist organization come one. Get your facts straight and then you have a discussion ready to go.