Originally Posted by motivez
You're classifying is as terrorism. They classify it as freedom fighting. I don't agree with their methods, but when they're fighting what's arguably the best army on earth.. who's funded by the US with the most advanced weapon systems on the planet.. and have what amount to pea shooters to retaliate with, they're going to do what they're able to do.
So you're apologizing for Hamas as you say I'm apologizing for Israel?
Again, if you or I lived under those conditions, and I encourage you to read more about the daily suffering of people who live there, you'd want to fight as well.
I'm not going to argue with that. But again, who did they vote in for their government?
So long as Israel is an occupying force in Palestinian lands, subjecting them to harsh military oppression, refuses to let them have autonomy over what lands they have.. including port / border control, etc.. and freely enter their territories to bulldoze neighborhoods and build settlements on top of them, launch aggressive military raids and kill civilians.. and then deny them food, water, medicine, fuel, and other forms of humanitarian aid.. they will fight back.
Interesting. So, Israel is basically strangling all the palestinians in Gaza.
And so would you and I if we were in that situation and forced to live under those conditions. It's a normal human response to want to fight oppression.
Quite possibly. But we have the benefit of an objective viewpoint.
When that ends, their society can progress. It wont be something that happens over night, but it will start to take place.
You paint a very compelling picture, Motivez.
Originally Posted by motivez
Also inconsistent in your opinion is the justification of what Israel "needs" to do but no allowance for the Palestinian people to do what they need to do simply to survive.
If you were confined to an area with limited natural resources and there were food, fuel, medicine shortages on a daily basis.. would you not build a tunnel to try to get those things? Or would you allow yourself and those you love to die from a barbaric blockade of humanitarian aid and the basic supplies needed to survive?
Have you ever spent time with anyone who's lived over there for an extended period? Known people who've volunteered in the refugee camps (which Israel has bombed)? I have, and the picture of what happens on a daily basis is so different from the limited view we get to see on TV here.
Nope, can't say that I have. But what I can say is that the democratically elected party in Gaza's mantra is that there can be no victory without jihad. So, when a government has that as it's stated goal, how are you to deal with such a thing?
Originally Posted by Dylith
We have no problems with Israel going after military targets such as those attacking Israel with rockets, but specifically targeting non-military targets is a direct violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Even if they do have that Hamas tag, people cannot be targeted under the law due to their political afiliation.
The launch sites for the rockets. Which may cause collateral damage which would suck, You have also heard none of us complain about the targeting of smuggling tunnels along the Gaza/Egypt border now have you?
Nope haven't heard you complain about that. Haven't even heard anyone bring them up.
Originally Posted by Dylith
No, it is not that simple, It is primarily ethnic based conflict mixed with religious undertones. Muslims aren't the only ones against Israel (Fatah for example is a secular party) it is more Arab based. ISrael doesn't want non-Jewish populations which leads to permanent occupation like we see rather than a multi-ethnic single state.
Uh...yeah. sorry, but I'm not going to buy that. It doesn't matter if Fatah is not muslim based. They lay claim to the same land for the same reason.
That, in no way, deminishes the seriousness of Israel's abuses though.
Nope, but it doesn't. And?
Because the blockade specifically targets the civilian population (in order to put pressure on the ruling body) which constitutes collective punishment which clearly violates the Fourth Geneva Convention of which Israel is a party.
Ok, quickly, how do you force a government to surrender without utter obliviation?? Oh, that's right, demoralize the public of said country.
It is purely humanitarian aid, food, medical supplies and the like it is distributed by UN officials, there are no grounds for barring it other than for collective punishment
OK, if that's 100% true and it may be. Then Israel is completely wrong.
What is all this about Hamas hiding behind it's citizens they are proud people and are not cowards like the Israeli offical who ducked when he heard the sound of a qassam missle in Israel. Hamas, is not afraid from you or I or the Israelis. It is time that erased all that false information you have stored in your head and you stood up and against the attrocities in Palestine and not side with Israel especially with their bad track record in history. All we ask is that you do your research stop listening to what Fox the sewer channel feeds your mind.
Right. They're really stand up guys. If they were so "stand up" and not cowards why not actually negotiate or show some signs that they don't plan any more lobbing of rockets into Israel? I know that they are the little fish and Israel is the big shark. But the simple fact is that as long as Israel feels threatened they are going to be proactive in defense.
Swift, when you say that Israel "they are acting in the best interests for their nation." What best interests are the Israel acting on monetary interests of killing innocent Palestinians in order to steal their land from them and make it their own home. Whatever happened to people acting on what is moral and right.
LOL, seriously? Moral and right? Can you name a military operation that was moral and right?
Hamas, is defending itself from the enemy which is Israel and if no one is going to help them fight for their citizens and their rights to be free of occcupation who better than they to take the task onto themselves.
Trust me if you were in the same situation as citizens of Gaza you were imprisoned in your own home, have limited access to food, electricity, medical treatment, and no aid was allowed to be brought into help the citizens you certainly would think twice before making this remark "But they are acting in the best interests for their nation."
Well of course. But you're not even looking at it from the other side. So from that statement anyone that doesn't support the peopple in Gaza is a total monster.
No one would want to imagine what life would be like if we were all the people of Gaza . Why don't you imagine living in Gaza I am sure would certainly see crystal clear that Hamas ,is standing up their citizens
Yep! Standing right up. Wait, how many installations did Hamas actually hit with those rockets? How much "good" did they actually do? Seriously?
If they want to stand up for their citizens why not do something to help get that aid to them? Like, oh I don't know, dismantalling the rocket launching sites?
Yeah, Hamas IS going to have to make the first move towards "peace" (thsi will never happen BTW). They are not holding any of the cards.
Let's just say for a second this was Cuba doing this to the USA. What would our opinion be then?
Originally Posted by Donkey®
I hate this stupid fucking argument. Israel has a choice. They don't HAVE to lob missiles blindly into civilian areas. They can grab all the troops they need, go door to door and fight against the actual people that shoot at them. Period.
And that would be called an invasion and get an equally bad response.