Israel bombs Gaza killing 200+

[LetTheTruthBeTold]

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

FAO: Dylith, Motivez and other Hamas supporters



The people of Palestine live in occupation and they have a right to freedom and since Hamas is trying to help in that effort then they should not be considered a terrorist organization.

Also I would ask, if you were PM of Israel how would you react to mortar/rocket attacks?

.

To answer your question you need to understand the situation in Palestine further.

1. one must go to the root of the problem which is the occupation once that is gone there would be no problems.

2. In West Bank there are no rockets but the occupation is there and exists. For example: Palestinians face humilation at checkpoints, their land is confiscated , homes demolished and lately settlers stole a home from a Palestinians and the court ordered the settlers to evacuate the home. As a result the settlers began burning Palestinans homes, land, shooting Palestinians and unleashing dogs at them and one must keep in mind that no rockets are fired by Palestinians in the West Bank. So, what is the Israeli armies and the settlers justification for these acts against the Palestinians.
Also a Very important to note :

Israel always tries to find excuses for its brutality, oppression, and occupation against Palestinians.

1. In Gaza the Israelis claim that the above acts are caused by rockets. and in the West Bank there are no rockets but Palestinians live in hell. In the West Bank in general and especially in the cities of Hebron and Ni'lin the aggression on the Palestinians by the Israeli armies and settlers has increased dramatically.

If you could please post some links of readings that made your minds up about the issue that would be great.


What types of readings are you looking for specifically ?

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by motivez

What business is it of theirs?

Israel needs to give the Palestinian people autonomy over their land and stop trying to micromanage everything they do when it comes to trade, border control, sea control, and even neighborhood control.

If the government here did as much shit to you as the Israeli one does to the Palestinian people you'd be joining the ranks of the libertarian horde claiming the government is responsible for everything.. but you'd be right.

There's nothing inherently aggressive about a tunnel, and they shouldn't act unless it crosses into Israeli territory.. It's not their place.

There is only one reason that anyone has ever built a tunnel up to Another countries borders and that is to covertly violate the border. In some cases it's less insidious ( egypy using tunnels to allow aid into Gaza), in others it is to perpetrate attacks. In either case, you're damn right it's Isreal's business that someone intends to violate her borders. If there were smugglers building tunnels under the US mexico border I'd hope we would do something about that too.

[Swift]

Originally Posted by motivez

You're classifying is as terrorism. They classify it as freedom fighting. I don't agree with their methods, but when they're fighting what's arguably the best army on earth.. who's funded by the US with the most advanced weapon systems on the planet.. and have what amount to pea shooters to retaliate with, they're going to do what they're able to do.

So you're apologizing for Hamas as you say I'm apologizing for Israel?

Again, if you or I lived under those conditions, and I encourage you to read more about the daily suffering of people who live there, you'd want to fight as well.

I'm not going to argue with that. But again, who did they vote in for their government?

So long as Israel is an occupying force in Palestinian lands, subjecting them to harsh military oppression, refuses to let them have autonomy over what lands they have.. including port / border control, etc.. and freely enter their territories to bulldoze neighborhoods and build settlements on top of them, launch aggressive military raids and kill civilians.. and then deny them food, water, medicine, fuel, and other forms of humanitarian aid.. they will fight back.

Interesting. So, Israel is basically strangling all the palestinians in Gaza.

And so would you and I if we were in that situation and forced to live under those conditions. It's a normal human response to want to fight oppression.

Quite possibly. But we have the benefit of an objective viewpoint.

When that ends, their society can progress. It wont be something that happens over night, but it will start to take place.

You paint a very compelling picture, Motivez.

Originally Posted by motivez

Also inconsistent in your opinion is the justification of what Israel "needs" to do but no allowance for the Palestinian people to do what they need to do simply to survive.

If you were confined to an area with limited natural resources and there were food, fuel, medicine shortages on a daily basis.. would you not build a tunnel to try to get those things? Or would you allow yourself and those you love to die from a barbaric blockade of humanitarian aid and the basic supplies needed to survive?

Have you ever spent time with anyone who's lived over there for an extended period? Known people who've volunteered in the refugee camps (which Israel has bombed)? I have, and the picture of what happens on a daily basis is so different from the limited view we get to see on TV here.

Nope, can't say that I have. But what I can say is that the democratically elected party in Gaza's mantra is that there can be no victory without jihad. So, when a government has that as it's stated goal, how are you to deal with such a thing?

Originally Posted by Dylith

We have no problems with Israel going after military targets such as those attacking Israel with rockets, but specifically targeting non-military targets is a direct violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Even if they do have that Hamas tag, people cannot be targeted under the law due to their political afiliation.



The launch sites for the rockets. Which may cause collateral damage which would suck, You have also heard none of us complain about the targeting of smuggling tunnels along the Gaza/Egypt border now have you?

Nope haven't heard you complain about that. Haven't even heard anyone bring them up.

Originally Posted by Dylith

No, it is not that simple, It is primarily ethnic based conflict mixed with religious undertones. Muslims aren't the only ones against Israel (Fatah for example is a secular party) it is more Arab based. ISrael doesn't want non-Jewish populations which leads to permanent occupation like we see rather than a multi-ethnic single state.

Uh...yeah. sorry, but I'm not going to buy that. It doesn't matter if Fatah is not muslim based. They lay claim to the same land for the same reason.

That, in no way, deminishes the seriousness of Israel's abuses though.

Nope, but it doesn't. And?

Because the blockade specifically targets the civilian population (in order to put pressure on the ruling body) which constitutes collective punishment which clearly violates the Fourth Geneva Convention of which Israel is a party.

Ok, quickly, how do you force a government to surrender without utter obliviation?? Oh, that's right, demoralize the public of said country.

It is purely humanitarian aid, food, medical supplies and the like it is distributed by UN officials, there are no grounds for barring it other than for collective punishment

OK, if that's 100% true and it may be. Then Israel is completely wrong.

What is all this about Hamas hiding behind it's citizens they are proud people and are not cowards like the Israeli offical who ducked when he heard the sound of a qassam missle in Israel. Hamas, is not afraid from you or I or the Israelis. It is time that erased all that false information you have stored in your head and you stood up and against the attrocities in Palestine and not side with Israel especially with their bad track record in history. All we ask is that you do your research stop listening to what Fox the sewer channel feeds your mind.

Right. They're really stand up guys. If they were so "stand up" and not cowards why not actually negotiate or show some signs that they don't plan any more lobbing of rockets into Israel? I know that they are the little fish and Israel is the big shark. But the simple fact is that as long as Israel feels threatened they are going to be proactive in defense.

Swift, when you say that Israel "they are acting in the best interests for their nation." What best interests are the Israel acting on monetary interests of killing innocent Palestinians in order to steal their land from them and make it their own home. Whatever happened to people acting on what is moral and right.

LOL, seriously? Moral and right? Can you name a military operation that was moral and right?

Hamas, is defending itself from the enemy which is Israel and if no one is going to help them fight for their citizens and their rights to be free of occcupation who better than they to take the task onto themselves.

Trust me if you were in the same situation as citizens of Gaza you were imprisoned in your own home, have limited access to food, electricity, medical treatment, and no aid was allowed to be brought into help the citizens you certainly would think twice before making this remark "But they are acting in the best interests for their nation."

Well of course. But you're not even looking at it from the other side. So from that statement anyone that doesn't support the peopple in Gaza is a total monster.

No one would want to imagine what life would be like if we were all the people of Gaza . Why don't you imagine living in Gaza I am sure would certainly see crystal clear that Hamas ,is standing up their citizens

Yep! Standing right up. Wait, how many installations did Hamas actually hit with those rockets? How much "good" did they actually do? Seriously?
If they want to stand up for their citizens why not do something to help get that aid to them? Like, oh I don't know, dismantalling the rocket launching sites?

Yeah, Hamas IS going to have to make the first move towards "peace" (thsi will never happen BTW). They are not holding any of the cards.

Let's just say for a second this was Cuba doing this to the USA. What would our opinion be then?

Originally Posted by Donkey®

I hate this stupid fucking argument. Israel has a choice. They don't HAVE to lob missiles blindly into civilian areas. They can grab all the troops they need, go door to door and fight against the actual people that shoot at them. Period.

And that would be called an invasion and get an equally bad response.

[JaJae]

It absolutely sucks that Hamas uses civilians as meat shields, but that is what they do. Israel was faced with the dilemma of protecting their own nation or allowing Hamas to use civilians as shields. By their own admission Hamas intentionally promotes tactics with increase civilian deaths for the purpose of propaganda. To them it is a very important strategy. They know they can't beat Israel with bombs so they fight the propaganda war. Israel NEEDS to protect itself. They pulled out of Gaza a few years ago to allow the Palestinians to form their own nation and live in peace. Instead they elected a terrorist government who used the time to rearm and attack Israel at every chance they had. Yes they also built up the infrastructure, yes they helped the Palestinian people in many ways, but they also hurt them equally. The civilian death toll thus far has been fairly low considering the tactics of Hamas.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by LetTheTruthBeTold

Jajee,
please do let me know where you get your information from because a lot of what your saying is untrue here.

Around 2500BC The first people who lived in Palestine were Ammonites and Canaanites who settled their not the Israelis. The Canaanites built most of the towns in Palestine around 200 towns. The people that came a around (1550 BC-1200 BC) became known as Palestinians who built the cities of Gaza, Ashod, Jet, Aqround and Ashkelon. Lod, Saklash. The Palestinians named their land Palestine. The israelis my friend came later in history.

You seem to be merging Philistines with the Palestinians based on some of the information in your post. I do not consider Philistines to be Palestinian. Sure there were settlements dating way back to Jericho, but they were not of Palestinian descent or culture. My point was that the timeline's being posted ignored the fact that the Jews been attached to the land before 1922, and therefore should be included in a timeline that the first poster left out. Your timeline then started in 1882, but that again skips a lot of very important information regarding immigration and settlement of the Jews into a region when the Palestinians of the time really hadn't developed the land much of their own and were ruled/controlled by other nations.

In any event, my timeline wasn't intended to go back to the first civilizations of the region, but rather to show that the Jews actually had some stake in the land prior to 1922, unlike the first timeline showed. Your initial timeline started in 1887 where you called it the first zionist settlement, but there was plenty of Jewish history with the land before then.

About the Israelis living in Palestine and getting massacred and expelled from the land Where did you get this information from because I would really question your points here.

This is part of what I was referring to.
the jewish diaspora - Google Search

About Hamas having their own tunnels that is within Palestinian borders not Israeli borders so, it really is none of your business or mine to speak about the tunnels which were used to get in medical supplies and food which Israel denied the people of Gaza.

There are tunnels going to places like Egypt for supplies, that isn't what Israel bombed before the 200 mortars were fired into Israel for a week. Claiming the tunnels could have been used for medical supplies is dishonest in the greater picture. The tunnels are typically used for weapons. Israel bombed a tunnel headed towards its border, which historically speaking is used as a means to attack and terrorize Israel. Medical supplies are typically able to be brought into the region without tunnels if they aren't actively attacking Israel. In that case Israel often wants to monitor/prevent everything coming in and out in an effort to protect its people. This is common in war. If Hamas didn't want this to happen they shouldn't have fired mortars into Israel for a week.

Your certainly blind not to see the atrocities that the Israelis have committed to the Palestinians today and in history. Israel murdered close to 400 Palestinians in these past few days compared to 3 Israelis. And you believe that Hamas is a terrorist organization come one. Get your facts straight and then you have a discussion ready to go.

First of all I am not blind to the atrocities of Israel. I've even said the blockades and the overreactions have gone too far. It is wrong. The difference though is who the aggressor is and who is protecting its people. If Hamas wants to protect Palestinians the answer is simple... stop attacking Israel. That by no means excuses Israel for what they have done, and I do not excuse their behavior. But Israel has the right to protect its citizens from Palestinian attacks. And to be quite honest, if I were leading Israel and my people were having mortars fired at them for a week by a neighboring country I too would send in my military to attack every known military location to protect my people.
And my facts are straight, unlike you I just don't pick and choose the ones I want to disclose. Both sides are wrong in this conflict. Neither side is less guilty than the other. However, recent events are typically Hamas poking away and instigating the sleeping dragon then crying when they get burned. Does Israel go overboard in their reactions? Absolutely and they are wrong for doing so. However, that does not excuse the actions of Hamas. There are even many in Palestine who blame Hamas for the recent violence and just want to live in peace.

YouTube - Palestinian girl: Hamas responsible for...

She is not alone. Fatah also blames Hamas for the violence. Fatah narrowly lost the election to Hamas and makes up a good percentage of political officials in Palestine. This isn't cut and dry.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

There is only one reason that anyone has ever built a tunnel up to Another countries borders and that is to covertly violate the border. In some cases it's less insidious ( egypy using tunnels to allow aid into Gaza), in others it is to perpetrate attacks. In either case, you're damn right it's Isreal's business that someone intends to violate her borders. If there were smugglers building tunnels under the US mexico border I'd hope we would do something about that too.

Until they actually violate our border it's up to the Mexican government to deal with it. You can't replace facts with gut feelings and expect anyone with an IQ above room temperature to take you seriously.

Again, if they were really interested in peace they would have pursued a diplomatic track before violating the ceasefire and launching a military attack.

Israel is to blame for the current situation. They violated the ceasefire, Hamas defended itself, and now Israel is continuing to commit war crimes and murder innocent women and children by lobbing missiles into population centers in violation of the Geneva Conventions.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by JaJae

It absolutely sucks that Hamas uses civilians as meat shields, but that is what they do. Israel was faced with the dilemma of protecting their own nation or allowing Hamas to use civilians as shields. By their own admission Hamas intentionally promotes tactics with increase civilian deaths for the purpose of propaganda. To them it is a very important strategy. They know they can't beat Israel with bombs so they fight the propaganda war. Israel NEEDS to protect itself. They pulled out of Gaza a few years ago to allow the Palestinians to form their own nation and live in peace. Instead they elected a terrorist government who used the time to rearm and attack Israel at every chance they had. Yes they also built up the infrastructure, yes they helped the Palestinian people in many ways, but they also hurt them equally. The civilian death toll thus far has been fairly low considering the tactics of Hamas.

Stunningly superficial. And inaccurate.

[kinggovernor]

Originally Posted by motivez

Stunningly superficial. And inaccurate.

how about you EXPLAIN what is wrong with that statement?

[motivez]

He's only repeating similar to what's been said earlier in the thread, there's so much wrong with it.. and so many facts about the situation have been selectively ignored that really, you might as well scratch the entire thing and start over after knowing what you're actually talking about instead of repeating overly generic talking points.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

how about you EXPLAIN what is wrong with that statement?

He can't without insults.

Here is a member of Hamas member of the Parliament speaking on TV to the Palestinian people, saying basically the same thing.

YouTube - Hamas admits it uses human shields

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by JaJae

It absolutely sucks that Hamas uses civilians as meat shields, but that is what they do.

When faced with a hostage situation, should swat teams just blast away? Use the same excuse you provide for Israel? "Well hey, they decided to use them as shields...so we're all good."

It's a pathetic and completely stupid argument. The ones doing the killing are the ones shooting the weapons.

[HughRuss]

Originally Posted by JaJae

You seem to be merging Philistines with the Palestinians based on some of the information in your post. I do not consider Philistines to be Palestinian. Sure there were settlements dating way back to Jericho, but they were not of Palestinian descent or culture.

Really?

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

The name "Palestine" comes, via Greek and Latin, from the Philistines; see History of Palestine.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

When faced with a hostage situation, should swat teams just blast away? Use the same excuse you provide for Israel? "Well hey, they decided to use them as shields...so we're all good."

It's a pathetic and completely stupid argument. The ones doing the killing are the ones shooting the weapons.

Israel is expected to protect its citizens. Even if a terrorist government is launching mortars from a civilian population. Should Israel allow them to continue firing with impunity and take all the deaths? Absolutely not. The Israeli people deserve to leave in peace just as much as the Palestinians. Israel should try to keep civilian casualties low, but Hamas has fired hundreds of mortars into Israel, Israel does need to respond. There is no way around that.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Israel is expected to protect its citizens. Even if a terrorist government is launching mortars from a civilian population. Should Israel allow them to continue firing with impunity and take all the deaths? Absolutely not. The Israeli people deserve to leave in peace just as much as the Palestinians. Israel should try to keep civilian casualties low, but Hamas has fired hundreds of mortars into Israel, Israel does need to respond. There is no way around that.

I am pretty sure I never said "Israel should sit there and take it." You're throwing out a stupid argument by claiming that is Israel's only option in "doing something." It's not.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by HughRuss

Really?

Yes really

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

I am pretty sure I never said "Israel should sit there and take it." You're throwing out a stupid argument by claiming that is Israel's only option in "doing something." It's not.

Its their best option to protect Israeli life. That is what their people want.

[HughRuss]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Yes really

No other response to the information I posted? Just "What I say wins, lalalalalalalala"?

[LetTheTruthBeTold]

Originally Posted by JaJae

It absolutely sucks that Hamas uses civilians as meat shields, but that is what they do. Israel was faced with the dilemma of protecting their own nation or allowing Hamas to use civilians as shields. By their own admission Hamas intentionally promotes tactics with increase civilian deaths for the purpose of propaganda. To them it is a very important strategy. They know they can't beat Israel with bombs so they fight the propaganda war. Israel NEEDS to protect itself. They pulled out of Gaza a few years ago to allow the Palestinians to form their own nation and live in peace. Instead they elected a terrorist government who used the time to rearm and attack Israel at every chance they had. Yes they also built up the infrastructure, yes they helped the Palestinian people in many ways, but they also hurt them equally. The civilian death toll thus far has been fairly low considering the tactics of Hamas.

I would suggest that you read what you wrote and take note of one thing you are one sided Israel Israel Israel protect it's citizens , because their blood to you is worth more than Palestinian blood right at least that is what you think. I am really surprised that you even put one positive thing about Hamas in this post that " they helped the Palestinian people in many ways".
.
Kudos for you.

[LetTheTruthBeTold]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Israel is expected to protect its citizens. Even if a terrorist government is launching mortars from a civilian population. Should Israel allow them to continue firing with impunity and take all the deaths? Absolutely not. The Israeli people deserve to leave in peace just as much as the Palestinians. Israel should try to keep civilian casualties low, but Hamas has fired hundreds of mortars into Israel, Israel does need to respond. There is no way around that.

I got to say that I like your remark " Israel should try to keep civilian casualties low," do you have suggestions that they can somehow implement.

[LetTheTruthBeTold]

Originally Posted by HughRuss

Really?

I definitely agree with you on your previous post that the Philistines refers to the Palestinians