YouTube - Palestinian girl: Hamas responsible for... She is not alone. Fatah also blames Hamas for the violence. Fatah narrowly lost the election to Hamas and makes up a good percentage of political officials in Palestine. This isn't cut and dry.[/quote] The only thing I will say here is this ...
01-01-2009, 12:23 AM
| #101 | ||||
| Lurker Democrat 
| She is not alone. Fatah also blames Hamas for the violence. Fatah narrowly lost the election to Hamas and makes up a good percentage of political officials in Palestine. This isn't cut and dry.[/quote] The only thing I will say here is this that Hamas was chosen by the majority of the people and your video does not serve as representation of the majority of the Palestinians population. | ||||
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01-01-2009, 01:39 AM
| #102 | ||||
| Lurker Democrat
| Is Israel really telling us the truth? If Israel is telling the world the truth about the situation in Gaza, Palestine then why have they denied entry to 400 Journalists into Gaza? Does Israel have something to hide? | ||||
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01-01-2009, 02:25 AM
| #103 | ||||
| ἀλήθεια  Humanist while (1)
| Originally Posted by LetTheTruthBeTold Even better question, why have they blockaded supplies (medical, nutritional, usw) from entering Gaza? 
__________________ History is a nightmare from which I'm trying to awake. --Stephen Dedalus (by way of Joyce) | ||||
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01-01-2009, 02:39 AM
| #104 | ||||
| Lurker Democrat
| Israel's failure to learn by Nir Rosen I read this fine article and thought of sharing it with all of you. You could also locate the article at Al Jazeera English - Focus - Israel's failure to learn Israel's failure to learn By Nir Rosen When George Bush, the US president, first entered the White House as the commander-in-chief in 2001, Palestinians were being killed in the al-Aqsa intifada. Eight years later, as Bush prepares to leave office, Israel is carrying out one of the largest massacres in its 60-year occupation of Palestine. The US, then and now, strongly backs Israel's offensive, justifying it as being, in fact, defensive. An Israeli general recently threatened to use military force to set Gaza back decades in much the same language used before the invasion of Lebanon in 2006. But despite the Israeli devastation of Lebanon, Hezbollah emerged victorious and the Shia resistance and social movement emerged a hero to the Arab world. Israel is about to make the same mistake with Hamas. Its notion of a truce with Hamas was that the Palestinians would quietly accept the siege. Israel would deny them the basic means of survival, let alone the basic means to create a functioning society. If the Palestinians attempted to resist, they would be crushed. As in Lebanon, Israel should have learned years ago that military might cannot crush Palestinian resistance movements. Media matters While the Israeli military again bombs the starving and imprisoned population of 1.5 million Gazans, the world watches their plight live as Western media scrambles to explain and, in some cases, justify the ongoing carnage. Even some Arab outlets have attempted to equate Palestinian resistance - and homemade rockets - with the might of the Israeli military machine. However, none of this is a surprise; the Israelis just concluded a global public relations campaign to gather support for their assault, even gaining the collaboration of some Arab states. An American periodical once asked me to contribute to a discussion on whether terrorism or attacks against civilians could ever be justified. My answer was that an American journal should not be asking whether attacks on civilians can ever be justified. This is a question for the weak, such as the Native Americans 150 years ago, the Jews in Nazi Germany, and the Palestinians today, to answer. Terrorism is a normative term which is used to describe what the 'other' does, not what 'we' do. Powerful nations such as Israel, the US, Russia or China will always describe their victims' struggle as terrorism. However, they fail to acknowledge as acts of terror the destruction of Chechnya, the slow slaughter of the remaining Palestinians, the repression of Tibetans, and the US occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan. Normative rules and what is legal and permissible are determined by the powerful. They formulate the concept of terrorism in normative terms and make it appear as if a neutral court derived such definitions instead of the oppressors. For the weak to resist becomes illegal by definition. This excessive use of legal jargon actually undermines the fundamentals of what is truly legal and diminishes the credibility of international institutions such as the UN. The law becomes the enemy of those who struggle. It becomes apparent that the powerful - those who make the rules - insist on legality merely to preserve the power relations that serve them or to maintain their occupation and colonialism. Desperate resistance Colonial powers use civilians strategically, settling them to claim land and dispossess the natives, be they indigenous populations in North America or Palestinians in what are today Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Attacking civilians, then, becomes the last, most desperate and basic method of resistance in the face of overwhelming odds and imminent eradication. The Palestinians do not attack Israeli civilians with the expectation that such violence will destroy or defeat Israel. When the native population understands that there is an irreversible dynamic stripping them of their land and identity with the support of an overwhelming power then they are forced to resort to whatever methods of resistance they can muster. PLO, then Hamas In 1948, when Israel was being established as a new state, 750,000 Palestinians were deliberately cleansed and expelled from their homes, and hundreds of their villages were destroyed. Their lands were settled by colonists who even today deny their very existence and wage a 60-year war against the remaining natives and the national liberation movements the Palestinians established around the world. Israel, its allies in the West and some regional Arab countries have managed to corrupt the leadership of the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO) and entice them with the promise of power at the expense of liberty for their people. This eventually neutralised and transformed the PLO into a liberation movement which collaborates with the occupier. The focus then shifted to Hamas, a movement which won legislative elections nearly three years ago and thus became a target for the Israelis. By enforcing an embargo and allowing Israel's siege of Gaza, the world has effectively told the Palestinians that they are unfit for democracy. Isolation and radicalisation By informing them that they are not free to choose the leaders they trust but must conform to the requirements set in place by others, the world community is only further isolating and radicalising the Palestinians.  Demonstrations across the world have expressed anger at Israel's offensive [AFP] This radicalisation has increased several-fold as Israel pounds Palestinian infrastructure, saying it is solely targeting Hamas targets. This is not true, however; Israeli forces have targeted Palestinian police forces, killing some such as Tawfiq Jaber, the chief of police - a former PLO official who stayed on in his post after Hamas took control of Gaza. With the vestiges of security and order debilitated in successive Israeli military campaigns, chaos will prevail in Gaza. If Hamas is weakened it will not be a more moderate Palestinian group which will take the helm. It will not be the weakened, corrupted and unpopular Fatah, but a more extreme group who have been persuaded through blockades and incessant Israeli attacks that compromise and negotiations with Tel Aviv are ill-fated. Failed policies In the past 60 years, Israeli leaders have toed the line that 'the only language Arabs understand is force'. However, it is Israel that has routinely used violence to solve problems. During the 2002 Arab Summit in Beirut, the Arab League collectively offered Israel a framework to end the bloodshed and move towards a comprehensive regional peace deal. Israel responded by invading Jenin and killing hundreds. Last month, Fatah launched a media campaign to revive the 2002 peace initiative, but this, too, has been answered with Israel's extreme brutality. A Zionist Israel is no longer a viable long-term project. Israeli settlements, land expropriation and separation barriers have long since made a two-state solution impossible. There can be only one state in historic Palestine. In coming decades, Israelis will be confronted with a fundamental question - whether to ensure the peaceful transition towards an egalitarian society in which Palestinians are given the same rights as Jews. The alternative in a few years will become untenable. History has shown that colonialism has only worked when most of the natives have been exterminated. But often, as in occupied Algeria, it is the settlers who flee. Eventually the Palestinians will not be willing to compromise and accept one state for both people, and the Jewish colonists will be forced to leave. Restoring Palestine Despite its lack of initiative for the Middle East peace process, the White House has in recent years been unable to dislodge the occupation of Palestine as the main motive for every anti-American militant in the Arab world and beyond. It is the common denominator by which Arab populist policies are shaped. Invading Iraq or offering economic benefits to frontline states will not make the Palestinian issue go away. During my travels and research, I have spoken with jihadists in Iraq, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Somalia and elsewhere; they all mentioned the Palestinian struggle as one of their motivations. The US will pay a price for backing Israel. Soon the so-called moderate Arab dictatorships that collaborate with the US hegemony in the region will find themselves in untenable positions. Loss of credibility Already we see tensions increasing in the region. Damascus has pulled out of third-party talks with Tel Aviv and Arab anger has been mounting not just at Israel, and not just at America, but also at their own regimes which have collaborated with Washington. Some Israelis have started to realise their government's flawed approach. While 81 per cent of Israelis support the military campaign, a poll has showed only 39 per cent believe it will succeed in removing Hamas or reducing violence. An editorial in Haaretz, an Israeli daily, even went so far as to label Israel "the region's bully". Barack Obama, the US president-elect, remains silent as Israel kills Palestinians with impunity. In his silence he expresses his complicity. Nir Rosen is a Beirut-based journalist, fellow at the New York University Center on Law and Security and the author of The Triumph of the Martyrs: A Reporter's Journey into Occupied Iraq. Last edited by LetTheTruthBeTold; 01-01-2009 at 02:45 AM.. | ||||
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01-01-2009, 03:02 AM
| #105 | ||||
| Lurker Democrat
| Originally Posted by HughRuss
Very good question. This answer is that they want that Palestinians to surrender to them, lose their diginity, their land, and their lives in hopes for the Israelis to settle there instead. My friend this will never happen because the Palestinians are warriors eventhough "Israel is carrying out one of the largest massacres in its 60-year Occupation of Palestine" the Palestinians will never surrender to the Israelis under any conditions. Israel's failure to learn By Nir Rosen | ||||
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01-01-2009, 09:33 AM
| #106 | ||||
| Braccae tuae aperiuntur.  Reform Party
| Originally Posted by HughRuss Sorry, I was posting from my Blackberry from a New Year's Eve party.
The Philistines were Greek and the land was named after them. The modern day Palestinians are of Arab descent. The Philistines had already left the land. There have been many people who settled the land since the Philistines. Just because the land was named after them doesn't mean everyone who settled the land after them was somehow descendants of them. The Philistines did not come from the same region as the modern Palestinians, they share nothing about culture, language, etc. They were two separate groups. The fact that they settled the same land is about all they have in common.
__________________ "I don't know where these people got their scientific education, but where I come from, if your theory can't predict or explain the observed facts, it's wrong." | ||||
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01-01-2009, 12:40 PM
| #107 | ||||
| ἀλήθεια Humanist while (1)
| Originally Posted by JaJae Which is speculation rather than historical fact
Originally Posted by JaJae Incorrect. The Palestinians are an amalgam of people with many different descents. The Philistines hadn't left the land but rather intermingled with the influencing new cultures.
Originally Posted by JaJae All of whom contributed to the Palestinian lineage.
Originally Posted by JaJae The word Palestine comes from the word Philistine. That would be like calling people from Germany French.
Originally Posted by JaJae The Philistines were of the first to establish culture in the Middle East, in particular the areas of Jerusalem and the areas now known as Gaza. Their culture, like American, was influenced heavily by invading tribes, conquering peoples, majority-travelers and the like. But to say they aren't of Philistine descent because their culture is different today than it was 4000 years ago is gleefully ignorant. That's like saying American Indians are obviously not descendants of the Native cultures thousands of years ago because their cultures are different since the White Man moved in.
Originally Posted by JaJae No, they are not. They existed in two different time periods.
Here: Originally Posted by Wikipedia Again
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01-01-2009, 06:08 PM
| #108 | ||||
| Lurker Democrat
| Israel fears individuals who stand against their injustices as the result they try anything in their power to slander and silence them. The Jews have criticized Jimmy Carters Book Palestine:Peace Not Apartheid by saying that Carter was a supporter of Terrorism despite that the book sold 300,000 copies and was #1 on the New York Best seller list for a continued period of time. Norman Finkelstein, a prominent Jewish writer who's emphasis is on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is criticized by Israel and banned from entering Israel for at least 10 years. Finkelstein, had this to say about Israel and the attacks on Carters book
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01-01-2009, 07:55 PM
| #109 | ||||
| America Fuck Yea Election Moderator  Republican In Name Only
| Originally Posted by HughRuss because its a war, lol
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01-01-2009, 08:56 PM
| #110 | ||||
| ἀλήθεια Humanist while (1)
| Originally Posted by kinggovernor They form a ceasefire, and then snug their noses at it? And then they bitch when Palestinians become anxious and pissy?
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01-01-2009, 08:59 PM
| #111 | ||||
| Braccae tuae aperiuntur. Reform Party
| Originally Posted by HughRuss You really shouldn't use Wikipedia as your source for information. It doesn't always tell the whole story and isn't always accurate. These are the facts and the true history. The Philistines were invaders, which is where they name comes from. They were referred to as Sea People because they came in from the sea, commonly understood to be from Greece. Is it possible they weren't from Greece? Sure, but not likely and the idea of them being Arab is basically unheard of. They were outsiders to the land. They also essentially disappeared from the land. These are factual statements... note the fact that they disappeared from the land... and they did so long before any descendants of modern Palestinians came to the region.
Your analogy is completely wrong. What you are basically saying is that Americans are also Native American because we settled the same land. That's just wrong. Americans by and large are of European descent. America is also a melting pot so it is a poor example to Palestinians and Philistines. I really don't know where you are getting your information from, but I would be interested in reading what source supports your claim. Even your wiki articles don't make your claims. It's not even entirely that pertinent to the discussion, I just found it odd that someone would discuss the era of the Philistines as if it somehow gave ownership of the land to the Palestinians. It's just historically inaccurate and flatly false. A lot of the timelines and information being presented in this thread seem to be a copy/paste of information from random sites without a full understanding of the history. Last edited by JaJae; 01-01-2009 at 09:21 PM.. | ||||
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01-01-2009, 09:03 PM
| #112 | ||||
| Braccae tuae aperiuntur. Reform Party
| Originally Posted by HughRuss Do you know how many rockets Palestine has fired into Israel during the cease fire? The cease fire was meant to allow both sides to live in peace. Palestine had that opportunity, instead they narrowly elected a terrorist organization to govern their nation and promoted aggressive behaviors towards Israel. This goes both ways. Israel did the right thing regarding blowing up that tunnel. It's what we would have done as well. If Hamas was on the Mexican border building a tunnel into the US (after their history of using tunnels for attacks) how would you want our government to respond? If they fired two hundred mortars into American cities for a week how would you want our government to respond? I would hope you would want our government to protect its citizens.
Last edited by JaJae; 01-01-2009 at 09:22 PM.. | ||||
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01-01-2009, 09:05 PM
| #113 | ||||
| Braccae tuae aperiuntur. Reform Party
| Originally Posted by LetTheTruthBeTold No offense, but I'll pass on the Al Jazeera propaganda.
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01-01-2009, 09:07 PM
| #114 | ||||
| Braccae tuae aperiuntur. Reform Party
| Originally Posted by LetTheTruthBeTold Barely, and many exit polls showed Fatah was doing better than Hamas. The idea that Hamas = the ideology of Palestinians is clearly wrong and that was the point I was trying to make. People are arguing in defense of Hamas as if they are acting in the best interest of their people when there is a significant percentage of the Palestinian populace who didn't vote for them. George Bush narrowly defeated John Kerry, does that mean all Americans want troops in Iraq? People keep defending the actions of Hamas as if it is what all Palestinians want. It isn't.
Last edited by JaJae; 01-01-2009 at 09:24 PM.. | ||||
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01-01-2009, 09:09 PM
| #115 | ||||
| Braccae tuae aperiuntur. Reform Party
| Originally Posted by HughRuss Medical supplies have been making in to Gaza. Yes Israel has stopped some and attempted to prevent them from being smuggled in for fear of Hamas rearming. But supplies are getting in, albeit slower than needed. Israel needs to blockade imports to Gaza to prevent weapons from getting in. It isn't easy to sort through everything during war. This isn't the first time this has happened and should have been expected. Hamas really should have stocked up on medical supplies before they attacked Israel for a week straight. That would seem like common sense to any government without a navy and limited supplies who cared about the well-being of their people.
Last edited by JaJae; 01-01-2009 at 09:26 PM.. | ||||
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01-01-2009, 09:13 PM
| #116 | ||||
| Braccae tuae aperiuntur. Reform Party
| Originally Posted by LetTheTruthBeTold The only thing they can do is use precision missiles (which they are). After most of the work is done from the air they can use ground forces as needed. But that will mean many Israeli deaths. Israel like any nation in war needs to protect its own people. I've been reading more reports lately that Hamas has been putting its Jihadi fighters in hospitals now in an attempt to either prevent Israel from attacking or to increase the civilian death count. That's just disgusting. And when you're fighting an enemy that continues to attack you while using such disgusting tactics you really have to wonder what can really be done to keep civilian casualties low.
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01-01-2009, 10:56 PM
| #117 | ||||
| ipsa Scientia Potestas est  Pragmatist
| Originally Posted by JaJae What exactly makes it propaganda? Seems like a normal op-ed piece from an arab-street point of view to me.
I think that's a pretty decent article honestly, I don't agree with everything in it, but I think it's important to learn about the perspective people who don't live in the US have about what's going on. Our view of the situation is extremely limited, and the coverage we watch on TV and read in our newspapers is almost entirely one sided. We certainly don't have a monopoly on the truth of a situation. Contrary to what some (like BillO/Fox News) say about Al Jazeera, I don't think they're a propaganda outlet for giving outspoken people who disagree harshly with the US a platform to write. | ||||
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01-01-2009, 11:05 PM
| #118 | ||||
| America Fuck Yea Election Moderator Republican In Name Only
| Originally Posted by HughRuss whom formed a ceasefire?
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01-01-2009, 11:07 PM
| #119 | ||||
| ipsa Scientia Potestas est Pragmatist
| Originally Posted by JaJae How many? How many killed hundreds of people, and dozens of children? How many Israeli children died from a Hamas blockade of food, water, and medicine and other forms of humanitarian aid?
If a US citizen goes to Canada and murders a Canadian, does that justify Canadian military (lol) action against the US that results in hundreds of dead American citizens, including women and children? I eagerly await an answer to that. Originally Posted by JaJae Again, this is stunningly superficial. You have to take into account the fact that Hamas does far more than simply military operations. They, like Hezbollah have a large charity branch, build hospitals, etc..
To the Palestinian people, they are freedom fighters who are fighting against a military occupation and severe oppression, a blockade that prevents them from getting food, water, medicine, and other forms of humanitarian aid.. all the while doing what they can to help Like the Al Jazeera article you said you refused to read, "terrorism" is what we label what "others" do.. I will agree their military tactics are deplorable and can be described as terrorism, but so can what Israel does. And to ignore everything else related to the situation doesn't make any sense. Originally Posted by JaJae I would, but not at the cost of murdering dozens of innocent women and children. Not at the cost of an 18 month blockade of humanitarian aid, and denying basic human rights to the people who live in some city.
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01-01-2009, 11:56 PM
| #120 | ||||
| ipsa Scientia Potestas est Pragmatist
| Originally Posted by kinggovernor So it's okay to make innocent children suffer in the process? That's acceptable? Wow.
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