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Old 01-03-2009, 03:51 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by JaJae View Post
Both sides have done wrong. Israel is not wrong for taking prisoners. Hamas tends to not take prisoners, hence the low numbers. And Israel needs to protect itself. If Hamas is building a tunnel towards Israel the Israeli citizens need to be protected.

Keep in mind, Israel attacked a military position. In return Hamas attacked civilians. The last time I recall Israel bombing a tunnel off the top of my head was during a time when there was quiet between Israel/Palesetine because the Palestinians were infighting. One Palestinian group decided to send a suicide bomber to an Israeli market killing civilians just to piss off Israel and create a response so they would stop fighting each other and focus on Israel. Israeli citizens have the land they want. They just want peace at this point and they expect their government to protect them. The Palestinians are not satisfied with their land and elected a government who wants war with Israel. We can recall all the back and forth we want, but that's the reality. No side is innocent, but only one side truly wants peace and only one side focuses on military targets.


You are so true how could we deny how peaceful the Israelis are. Time and time again they demonstrate to us how they are worthy of our trust and that they are simply a peaceful people. The Massacre of Deir Yassin took place on April 9th 1948 when Israeli forces occupied the village killing at least 93 Palestinians. Fahim Zaydan, who was twelve at the time remembers his family murdered before his eyes: "they took us one after the other; shot an old man and when on of the his daughters cried, she was shot too. They they called my brother Muhammad, and shot him in front of us, and when my mother yelled. bending over him- carrying my little sister Hudra in her hands, still breastfeeding her - they shot her too (Pappe,). In April 2002 the Jewish leadership mentioned the high number of its victims of Deir Yassin to warn all Palestinians that they to with be ethnically cleansed in the same fashion if they refuse to abandon their homes.

Tunnels built in Gaza extend to Egypt not into Israel making it Gaza border. Why do you always insist that Israel has the right to do anything when their is plenty of evidence out there about their lies, killings of innocent people that speaks a lot about how peaceful Israel is. Gaza, attacks Israel because they are being provoked to do it. Gaza, is under siege, the citizens are suffering from food shortages and medical shortages to say the least. You need to picture yourself living in your home and having an occupier control the air your breathe, instill fear into you and your family, controlling your food supply, electricity, carosine, gasoline, water, the Israeli's watching your every moves, humiliations you undergo by the Israelis on the checkpoints. In addition to that the Israeli's wait for the time to hit the Palestinians with warplane missiles for false reasons just for purpose of the operations of ethnic cleansing. You will never accept occupation under any conditions but you believe the people of Gaza should swallow it and silence themselves against injustice, oppression, occupation, aggression, torture, they face daily and being imprisoned in their own homes by Israel. You really need to take a visit to Gaza and see how life is out there then you might come to your senses and realize that what Israel is doing should be punished by the International Law. Many are coming around and realizing how barbaric Israel is and who they truly are. For example: A Britain Phone company was partners with Israel, a few days ago The British phone company sent Israel a text message that we no longer want to business with you because you are killers.

Should we talk about the Palestinians in the West Bank that don't hit qassam rockets into Israel, but yet live under occupation aka Isra Hell conditions, are terrorized, tortured and humiliated by the Israeli's.
You mention that Israeli's have the land but now they want peace. why should we think about all the refugees who were forced to leave their land.?Why should we care if the people of Gaza get targeted by warplane missiles killing the family or leaving whoever remains alive homeless? And why do the Palestinians need peace it's not like they know the taste of it in their struggle for freedom against the Occupation 60 years now in the making?
IsraHell means peace you know.
 
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Old 01-03-2009, 04:37 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by motivez View Post
Exactly, thank you.

Even during this ceasefire, Israel had a blockade of Gaza which prevented food, water, medicine, fuel, and other forms of humanitarian aid that were needed for survival through.

I think Hamas was incredibly restrained considering those circumstances. I am sure if your local government decided on a whim that your neighborhood was going to be blockaded and you had absolutely no say about it, and they were going to cut your electricity, not provide you with fuel, tell the red cross they couldn't come in to provide medicine for your sick mother, aunt, or whoever.. and this lasted for over a year, at some point you'd want to fight back too.

I mean, seriously. Give it some thought. How would you feel if you were in that situation? I challenge someone to answer that honestly.

But of course, the Palestinian people aren't supposed to fight back. They're supposed to accept as being treated as though their lives are worth less.

It's really amazing to me to watch the infliction of such suffering come full circle with Israel. Their state was created because of the persecution they suffered, and now they persecute another race of people in similar ways, denying them basic human rights, medical treatment, food, etc..

It's also interesting at how angry people here get over eminent domain cases.. the government taking your land? Unacceptable!

But now imagine the state (or a foreign power) coming in and bulldozing your neighborhood while you are asleep, being forced out of your home in the middle of the night, with no say in their actions at all. No laws to protect you.. and imagine they build a settlement on top of it, denying you access.

How would you feel? Seriously. You'd be angry too. Now imagine this happening over and over again. Because that's what Israel has continued to do for decades.
I absolutely agree with you Hamas, has remained steadfast, and diplomatic even with harsh conditions they live in and many people are starting to see that they are not a terrorist organization they simply are freedom fighters. They deserve basic human rights the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and they have yet to receive any of those freedoms.

You would think that by now The Israeli's would have taken a lessen from the Holocaust. I guess they never learn from history.
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Old 01-03-2009, 09:25 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by motivez View Post
Of course they are, you're assuming something would have happened even though nothing had yet.
it isn't wild to assume that Hamas while using the tactics, techniques and procedures they used previously to attack Israel isn't going to do the same thing again.

Last edited by kinggovernor; 01-03-2009 at 09:32 AM..
 
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Old 01-03-2009, 09:31 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by motivez View Post
How fast can you really dig a tunnel?
this is the real heart of your belief. You have to downplay everything Hamas does because it is the only way you can rationalize your beliefs. It doesn't take that long to dig a tunnel, maybe 1-2 weeks to dig a 500-600 meter tunnel.
 
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Old 01-03-2009, 02:32 PM   #165
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Hello everyone,

This is my first post in this forum. I hope that I will have a frutiful discussion with you guys.

Let me first ask you, what is your main source of information about Palestine and the conflict over there?

I took a quick look at the posts here and I found very interesting posts. I would like for now to comment on the following:

Originally Posted by Swift-Bass View Post
Besides's, who "owns" the land of palistine is totally debatable. Especially since both Jews and Muslims clam Abraham as their father.
Who owns the land is the one who is living on it for hundreds of years, not who was living 2000 or even 4000 years before. Give you an example 600 years ago US was for American Indians now its USA. Now suppose 200 years from now a foreign power came to occupy America, will you say who "owns" America is debatable?

I'm not going to discuss 2000 years ago, while hundreds of my people women and children are losing their lives because of Israel barabric attack against them.

Originally Posted by [URL="http://www.libertylounge.net/forums/members/kinggovernor/"
kinggovernor[/url];230986]if people want terrorists to lead them, I don't feel bad when shit doesn't go their way.
Americans elected Bush who basically used lies to justify the occupation of a country. Over 1 million Iraqis lost their lives so far. 1948 many terrorists Jewish orgainizations members formed the first Israeli government, and in the following elections those members were elected based on their history in those organizations, can you say the same thing about the Israelis who elected those terrorists?

Israel so far killed: 464 Palestinians.
Injured: 2500 Palestinians 200 very serious injuries.
32% are women and children.

destroyed
1 University
2 Schools
11 Mosques
over 60 homes
In addition to the buildings belong to the government.

Israel started its bombardment on Gaza during the ruch hour, when kids were leaving schools. Any justification for such timing is pointless.

Israel is denying 400 journalists from entering Gaza to report what really is going on.

Now if you still support Israel despite these Israeli war crimes against Palestinians let us know what do you think the solution based on what you think not what fox or any alike channel and reporters think?
 
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Old 01-03-2009, 03:36 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by palestinian View Post


Who owns the land is the one who is living on it for hundreds of years, not who was living 2000 or even 4000 years before. Give you an example 600 years ago US was for American Indians now its USA. Now suppose 200 years from now a foreign power came to occupy America, will you say who "owns" America is debatable?

I'm not going to discuss 2000 years ago, while hundreds of my people women and children are losing their lives because of Israel barabric attack against them.
Welcome.

Yes, America quite literally stole the majority of America from the Indians. Does that make it right? Nope! And they were here before columbus!

America took the land by force. So if America is the proper owner of the land, then why isn't Israel the proper owner of Palestine? It was taken the same way the US government took the North American continent.

We've been through this actually. BTW, emotional plays don't work to well with me with this issue. Especially since the "oppressed" Hamas is more then happy to hit the "barbaric" Israelis with all the rockets they can get their hands on.
 
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Old 01-03-2009, 03:41 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Swift-Bass View Post
Welcome.

Yes, America quite literally stole the majority of America from the Indians. Does that make it right? Nope! And they were here before columbus!

America took the land by force. So if America is the proper owner of the land, then why isn't Israel the proper owner of Palestine? It was taken the same way the US government took the North American continent.

We've been through this actually. BTW, emotional plays don't work to well with me with this issue. Especially since the "oppressed" Hamas is more then happy to hit the "barbaric" Israelis with all the rockets they can get their hands on.


It wasn't taken the same way. Other entities took it from the Palestinians...not the Jews. If the Jews had gathered an army and took it by force instead of having it handed to them by the British et al...people could respect their position more.
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Old 01-03-2009, 03:46 PM   #168
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LetTheTruthBeTold has political potential

Imagine living in Gaza and this happening to your family Would you just sit there and accept it? Fox, the sewer channel and other media try to silence the voice of the poor Palestinians. Some Jewish groups believe in the Palestinians should live side by side with the Israel's hell with them and their coexistence. These Jewish groups have a motive to brainwash the Vulnerable Palestinians all over the world in order to agree and accept the occupation, and for the Palestinians to forget their homelands and for the occupier to take all of Palestine for the Israelis.

Last edited by LetTheTruthBeTold; 01-03-2009 at 04:56 PM..
 
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Old 01-03-2009, 03:54 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Donkey® View Post
It wasn't taken the same way. Other entities took it from the Palestinians...not the Jews. If the Jews had gathered an army and took it by force instead of having it handed to them by the British et al...people could respect their position more.
You can't be serious...
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Old 01-03-2009, 04:01 PM   #170
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LetTheTruthBeTold has political potential

Originally Posted by Swift-Bass View Post
Welcome.

Yes, America quite literally stole the majority of America from the Indians. Does that make it right? Nope! And they were here before columbus!

America took the land by force. So if America is the proper owner of the land, then why isn't Israel the proper owner of Palestine? It was taken the same way the US government took the North American continent.

We've been through this actually. BTW, emotional plays don't work to well with me with this issue. Especially since the "oppressed" Hamas is more then happy to hit the "barbaric" Israelis with all the rockets they can get their hands on.

Welcome to the threads Palestine we are glad to have you here. Swift-Bass How is this an emotional plea? What is provided by our newest member s facts in history and now. He supports his claims with evidence. Is Israel justified in attacking hospitals, and ambulances? What is the reason for attacking hospitals? Because of the large numbers of victims being brought in to the hospitals they have no rooms or beds for the victims of this attrocity Israel caused.
 
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Old 01-03-2009, 04:06 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Donkey® View Post
It wasn't taken the same way. Other entities took it from the Palestinians...not the Jews. If the Jews had gathered an army and took it by force instead of having it handed to them by the British et al...people could respect their position more.
You're only partially right.

The land was handed declared a safe haven for Jews in the 40s, but a Jewish Council in 1942 declared the land for the Jews and the Jews only, and in '48, the Zionist movement declared independence from other control and established a theocratic-Jewish state.
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Old 01-03-2009, 04:30 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Donkey® View Post
It wasn't taken the same way. Other entities took it from the Palestinians...not the Jews. If the Jews had gathered an army and took it by force instead of having it handed to them by the British et al...people could respect their position more.
It wouldn't matter. The land was a territory of the British and before then other Empires controlled the land. The Palestinians never truly owned the land in the sense that you are describing. The British didn't really hand the Israelis land, that was done by the UN. But in any case, the land was divided and they went to war over land disputes. The Israelis won and took control of the land. This is basically the premise of just about every war in history... two differing groups fighting over the control of land. When there is a victor the winning side usually holds claim to the land. It shouldn't matter that before the war England donated the land to the UN who divided it up amongst the two inhabiting groups. They went to war over the land, so your qualifier doesn't seem to make sense.
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Last edited by JaJae; 01-03-2009 at 04:36 PM..
 
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Old 01-03-2009, 04:32 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by LetTheTruthBeTold View Post
Imagine living in Gaza and this happening to your family Would you just sit there and accept it? Fox, the sewer channel and other media try to silence the voice of the poor Palestinians. Some Jewish groups believe in the Palestinians should live side by side with the Israel's hell with them and their coexistence. These Jewish groups have a motive to brainwash the Vulnerable Palestinians all over the world in order to agree and accept the occupation, and for the Palestinians to forget their homelands and for the occupier to take all of Palestine for the Israelis.
Seriously, that's a lot of pictures and its lagging my screen. Fighting for the sympathy card doesn't work for me either because I can link many, many pictures of suicide bombers blowing up Israeli markets as well. Both sides have killed innocents. And the Palestinians get more sympathy media than the Israelis. It's just that most Americans I think tend to side with Israel because they relate more closely to the Jews in our nation.
 
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Old 01-03-2009, 04:32 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by palestinian View Post
Americans elected Bush who basically used lies to justify the occupation of a country. Over 1 million Iraqis lost their lives so far.
what lies?
1948 many terrorists Jewish orgainizations members formed the first Israeli government, and in the following elections those members were elected based on their history in those organizations, can you say the same thing about the Israelis who elected those terrorists?
yes they are responible for they elected into office. When the United States selected Bush over Kerry in 2004, they selected to continue the war in Iraq and Afghanistan rather than surrender.
 
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Old 01-03-2009, 04:35 PM   #175
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Old 01-03-2009, 04:37 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by LetTheTruthBeTold View Post
Swift-Bass How is this an emotional plea? What is provided by our newest member s facts in history and now. He supports his claims with evidence. Is Israel justified in attacking hospitals, and ambulances? What is the reason for attacking hospitals? Because of the large numbers of victims being brought in to the hospitals they have no rooms or beds for the victims of this attrocity Israel caused.
Showing nothing but a series of graphic pictures of only one side's losses is definitely an emotional plea. I could like 50 images of innocent Israelis blown to bits, but that doesn't prove anything other than I'm looking for an emotional response. Which I'm not, we can discuss the issues without posting a gazillion one-sided pictures.
 
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Old 01-03-2009, 04:41 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by kinggovernor View Post
it isn't wild to assume that Hamas while using the tactics, techniques and procedures they used previously to attack Israel isn't going to do the same thing again.
I'm saying it's none of Israel's business what the Palestinian people do on their own land. This is at the heart of the matter.

If they think something is a threat, they should use diplomatic means rather than immediately launching a military operation.
 
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Old 01-03-2009, 04:44 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by kinggovernor View Post
this is the real heart of your belief. You have to downplay everything Hamas does because it is the only way you can rationalize your beliefs. It doesn't take that long to dig a tunnel, maybe 1-2 weeks to dig a 500-600 meter tunnel.
I'm not downplaying anything, nor have I justified their attacks. I just don't justify Israel's either, because on the whole Israel kills far more innocent men, women, and children than Hamas does.

The point in saying "How long does it take" was to counter the "bus speeding towards a checkpoint" where you have very little time to react. If you see them building a tunnel, you have plenty of time to use diplomatic means to either:

a) ask them to justify their actions if you believe it's heading towards your border
b) ask them to stop
c) get a third party involved

Military action should never be the first choice, it should be the last. But time and time again, Israel rejects diplomacy and opportunities for peace because they don't really want it. They want to settle more land and continue their military oppression of the Palestinian people.
 
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Old 01-03-2009, 04:45 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by motivez View Post
I'm saying it's none of Israel's business what the Palestinian people do on their own land. This is at the heart of the matter.

If they think something is a threat, they should use diplomatic means rather than immediately launching a military operation.
yes they do, they gave it back but there were several conditions that the Palestinians had to meet. They are not meeting those conditions, so the hammer had to be dropped again.

No one has a "right" to land, anywhere on the planet.

Why should they use diplomatic means when they have failed in the past, if the threat is real, which it was, then they need to stop it, which they did.
 
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