I hate Walmart and all, but this is screwed up...

[thomez]

Please give me cliffs on all the "immoral" things that Walmart does since I don't want to go to OT to read a whole thread.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by thomez

Please give me cliffs on all the "immoral" things that Walmart does since I don't want to go to OT to read a whole thread.

They pay people what they're willing to work for instead of a wage that finances a BMW and a half million dollar house?

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

They pay people what they're willing to work for instead of a wage that finances a BMW and a half million dollar house?

How about locking their cleaning crews inside the building?

[thomez]

Hmmm... I'd quit working there if that bothered me.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by thomez

Hmmm... I'd quit working there if that bothered me.

And if there are not other avenues for you to make money?

[thomez]

Then ya better not quit!

Seriously you can't lock people in it's a fire hazard illegal thing and I'm SURE there is already legislation on the books about that.

Anything else?

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

How about locking their cleaning crews inside the building?

Every single company I know of does that, I worked retail for 7 years, thats NORMAL practice...why? Because there's a dozen emergency exits that they can go out in the event of an emergency.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

And if there are not other avenues for you to make money?

How's that wal marts fault? If there's no other avenues for money get off your ass, get an education and find a damned avenue.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by thomez

Please give me cliffs on all the "immoral" things that Walmart does since I don't want to go to OT to read a whole thread.

Well, here's my post...

I don't know about MD, but in CA, Wal-Mart costs taxpayers over $110,000,000 a year because of health care, income tax credits, housing subsidies, and food stamps (according to a study at UC Berkley). That is, they underpay their employees so much that their employees, even the full-time ones, qualify for those government-funded programs. Wal-Mart had $240,000,000,000 in sales for 2003, but still puts their employees in a position where they must get state-funded health care. The federal poverty level for a family of four is $17,650/yr. The average Wal-Mart hourly sales employee makes $13,861/yr. In total, Wal-Mart costs American taxpayers $1,557,000,000 a year to support its employees.

And that's not even including the subsidies that Wal-Mart receives to set up shop in towns. Nationwide subsidies total somewhere in the realm of $1,000,000,000.

Finally, they've lost numerous cases wherein they were accused of forcing workers to work off the clock. They paid a $50,000,000 settlement in Colorado for an off the clock class action suit. In Texas, it was $150,000,00. They faced lawsuits in 31 different states for wage and hour abuses. They paid $11,000,000 to settle federal allegations that they used illegal immigrants to clean their stores.

That first number, $110,000, should actually be $86,000. I looked at Berkeley's newest study, and that's what they concluded.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

How's that wal marts fault? If there's no other avenues for money get off your ass, get an education and find a damned avenue.

Don't you agree that's a little unreasonable? I mean, some of these people are 50+ miles away from competitive employers.

Wal-Mart meets their price points because they underpay their employees and mistreat their overseas workers, and they employ illegal immigrants (and have been fined a pretty penny for doing so). Look, Wal-Mart oligopolizes entire towns and counties because of their unethical practices. They encourage their employees to take advantage of government benefits and welfare. Employees have given statements saying that when they asked for raises, the managers would just offer to help them apply for welfare, some of them even had a stock of all of the necessary paperwork. Other employees have been told that they need to do a 1hr job in 10min and there better not be any overtime and implied that the employee would be replaced if they did not adhere to the time constraint; so the employees work the 10min and then clock out to finish the job. Wal-Mart perpetuates a cycle of low-income households with their long-term penetration pricing business model, which puts competitors out of business, thus forcing their competitors' employees to work for them and receive a lower anual income and ultimately encouraging the employees to take advantage of welfare systems.

The beautiful thing about an oligopoly is the companies with the greater percentage of the market share are the ones that get to determine the price points that the public will meet. This is absolutely wonderful ... for the company's shareholders. When a Wal-Mart has no competition, they have no reason to take care of their employees. The same goes for any other employer, but Wal-Mart acknowledges and takes advantage of that position, which is why I say that they perpetuate poverty.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by thomez

Then ya better not quit!

Seriously you can't lock people in it's a fire hazard illegal thing and I'm SURE there is already legislation on the books about that.

Legislation has long determined that it's illegal to hold someone somewhere against their will.

In any event, Wal-Mart was fined a lot of money for that (see my post above for the number).

Anything else?

Oh most definitely.



edit:
I take that back. The fines regarding the cleaning crews were for hiring illegal immigrants to do it, not because of locking anyone in the building. I hadn't taken emergency exits into consideration when I made this post. I remember one of the immigrants making a statement saying something along the lines of, "They would lock the doors and tell us that we can't leave until a manager lets us out in the morning," which obviously depicts a picture of them not being able to leave. So yeah, they obviously could have left ... they'd just have to use the emergency exits.

[thomez]

"health care, income tax credits, housing subsidies, and food stamps"

none of that is Walmarts problem or concern

you can't blame Walmart for the governments massive socialist debt to the people

look at it from the flip side - what if the government didn't provide those things and a job at Walmart would not pay the bills and feed the family - don't you think that people might demand Walmart pay more or they wouldn't bother working there at all? minus well just jump on Welfare!

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by thomez

"health care, income tax credits, housing subsidies, and food stamps"

none of that is Walmarts problem or concern

you can't blame Walmart for the governments massive socialist debt to the people

look at it from the flip side - what if the government didn't provide those things and a job at Walmart would not pay the bills and feed the family - don't you think that people might demand Walmart pay more or they wouldn't bother working there at all? minus well just jump on Welfare!

Thats right...

If wal mart is the only place you can work then I think you should a) take the job b) move c) starve to death

Any of the above is ok with me.

[thewise1]

The real problem with walmart is when they cause the small businesses to go belly up.

You guys say "well they are providing jobs", but there's no way they are making up for the jobs they destroyed with the jobs they offer.

You go from companies that can actually hire people knowledgeable about what they sell (Think Hank Hill selling propane) to what we all know walmart is - cheap low quality goods that last a 10th of the time for 70% of the price. Good customer service to no customer service. Parking lots with people that are careful to parking lots that you can't take a nice car to for fear of a door ding or getting keyed.

Don't get me wrong - I want businesses to be able to succeed and grow as big as possible, but there comes a point when a company is maybe a bit TOO strong and is no longer just succeeding, but also bringing down everyone else as well. I guess this is where I am not 100% libertarian because they would say let the free market sort it out - but it's no longer a free market when walmart owns the market completely and competition can't even get started.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by thewise1

The real problem with walmart is when they cause the small businesses to go belly up.

You guys say "well they are providing jobs", but there's no way they are making up for the jobs they destroyed with the jobs they offer.

You go from companies that can actually hire people knowledgeable about what they sell (Think Hank Hill selling propane) to what we all know walmart is - cheap low quality goods that last a 10th of the time for 70% of the price. Good customer service to no customer service. Parking lots with people that are careful to parking lots that you can't take a nice car to for fear of a door ding or getting keyed.

Don't get me wrong - I want businesses to be able to succeed and grow as big as possible, but there comes a point when a company is maybe a bit TOO strong and is no longer just succeeding, but also bringing down everyone else as well. I guess this is where I am not 100% libertarian because they would say let the free market sort it out - but it's no longer a free market when walmart owns the market completely and competition can't even get started.

If those other businesses go belly up then doesn't that tell you that the market didn't need the services offered by those other businesses? Those services merely served to inflate prices. I know lots of businesses that want wal mart to move in because of the additional business they provide.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by thewise1

Small stores do pay better a lot of the time (although there are often tight fisted owners too )

Proof? Do they also offer benefits?

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Proof? Do they also offer benefits?

Proof? "The federal poverty level for a family of four is $17,650/yr. The average Wal-Mart hourly sales employee makes $13,861/yr."

So either the average business pays more than Wal-Mart, or the federal government has determined that the average American is poor.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

If those other businesses go belly up then doesn't that tell you that the market didn't need the services offered by those other businesses? Those services merely served to inflate prices. I know lots of businesses that want wal mart to move in because of the additional business they provide.

Do you agree that it's possible for a corporation to become so powerful that they make a 'free market' not free?

If so, do you think this is a bad thing?

Yes there are companies that want walmart to move in, like McDonalds for instance. How many companies that pay well want walmart to move in? (Not arguing that, I'm merely querying for more information here)

I guess I grew up in an America that really valued small business. I was able to start my own ISP for instance when I was 16 - and I did quite well. My dad is an architect and general contractor and ran his own small business. I did a lot of work for other small businesses as well. Small business was and to some degree still is the way that the average joe can do well in life, but with huge corporations like walmart to compete against, it's pretty hard to really have a free market for anyone but walmart. This applies more to the small retail stores, but really my problem with walmart extends to all the corporations that are so big and powerful that they stifle competition. How can you work out a supply deal to compete with walmart when walmart can tell a company to not sell to you if they don't want to lose walmart's business? I only know of one company that has turned down walmart - and it's a lawnmower company that just didn't want to be told how to run their business. It turned out to be a good business decision too - because they didn't blow off their old distribution network, and made it known that they were asked to do so by walmart, they have been doing better than ever.

A lot of you act like Walmart is doing a favor by providing jobs... I would rather kill myself than work there. I guess that's an exagguration, since as long as I'm alive I've got a chance at finding something better, but I hope the point is clear. Shitty pay. A chance at working your way up the walmart corporate ladder ( wooo $30k a year as a 'manager'). Benefits that are just enough to call themselves benefits.

No, I'd much rather work for a small business where I can actually learn about a trade, a product, or a discipline and actually make something of myself. I'd probably get paid more, and many small businesses offer benefits anyway.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Proof? Do they also offer benefits?

Yes, a lot of them offer benefits.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by thomez

"health care, income tax credits, housing subsidies, and food stamps"

none of that is Walmarts problem or concern

They have a responsibility to be a competitive employer. When they are not being competitive when it comes to employment, they are exhibiting bad business ethics. This is why large cities are going after Wal-Mart (btw, today Chicago passed the bill or ordinance (sp?) or whatever it is).

you can't blame Walmart for the governments massive socialist debt to the people

I'm not. I'm blaming Wal-Mart for having such a detrimental impact on our social developments. I'm blaming Wal-Mart for oligopolizing. I'm blaming Wal-Mart for encouraging employees to take advantage of government benefits, rather than offering those benefits themselves. I'm blaming Wal-Mart for mistreating their overseas workers. I'm blaming Wal-Mart for hiring illegal immigrants. But I'm certainly not blaming Wal-Mart for anything that is the government's problem.

look at it from the flip side - what if the government didn't provide those things and a job at Walmart would not pay the bills and feed the family - don't you think that people might demand Walmart pay more or they wouldn't bother working there at all?

Yes.

minus well just jump on Welfare!

You're bringing forth arguments that I've already covered in the other thread. It would save us both a lot of time if you just read it. It's only two pages. Specifically, Jas0n and I were discussing exactly what you're proposing here (he agrees with you, and I do too, bu