Are there any secular reasons to oppose state-recognition of gay marriage? - Page 2

Stylerod · 10-06-2006, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

The ones I have known (and it's been many. I worked in the entertainment industry for 12 years) weren't any worse than anyone else.

I'm sure my number is wrong. I can only go by what I see around me. And I guess my brother in law being a DJ in a gay bar and talking about everything that goes on in there with his friends artificially raises my numbers!

Dumpy Dooby · 10-06-2006, 10:54 AM

To end this "no benefit to society" bullshit, I will ask you this: What benefit(s) do sterile people provide for society that homosexuals could not? If you cannot come up with an answer, then by logical extension of contextual analysis, you must accept that sterile people should not be allowed to marry.

And slosucks, I would have told your brother that there is no family "status quo," and if anything, gay couples tend to provide better family values.

ballz2wallz · 10-06-2006, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

gay couples tend to provide better family values.

That's debateable.

Dumpy Dooby · 10-06-2006, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

That's debateable.

1 in 2 children live in single parent homes
1 in 3 chilren born to unmarried parents
10 million single mothers
5 million couples co-habit
1 in 25 kids live with neither parent

and 10 million kids with gay parents

Gay couples with children tend to be older and better educated. They certainly don't have accidental children. On average, gay and lesbian parents do tend to be more committed, devoted and successful parents than heterosexual parents. It was heterosexuals that lead the way to co-habitation, out of wedlock child bearing, and divorce. But they, the heterosexuals, have one little section of the population that wants to get married, and they turn around say, "Well, you're the problem."

Now let's see what you got.

ballz2wallz · 10-06-2006, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

1 in 2 children live in single parent homes
1 in 3 chilren born to unmarried parents
10 million single mothers
5 million couples co-habit
1 in 25 kids live with neither parent

and 10 million kids with gay parents

Gay couples with children tend to be older and better educated. They certainly don't have accidental children. On average, gay and lesbian parents do tend to be more committed, devoted and successful parents than heterosexual parents. It was heterosexuals that lead the way to co-habitation, out of wedlock child bearing, and divorce. But they, the heterosexuals, have one little section of the population that wants to get married, and they turn around say, "Well, you're the problem."

Now let's see what you got.

When comparing a situation to another, you shouldn't choose something that's just as equal or worse. When you are introspectively evaluating yourself, do you say 'well I'm better than the drug addict on the corner of the street whoring herself out' or do you choose someone better, admirable, and a 'hero' of sorts to compare yourself to and say 'well, I could work on this to attain status of that type?

That said, comparing kids growing up in a gay household to all the disfunctional families out there is hardly justifying kids in gay households; in fact it's probably more of an insult that you would use those stats as your comparison.

Instead, what you should be comparing the kids to is a proper upbringing of children. Now, part of the justification for a gay couple bringing up kids is that the kids don't turn out to be gay. Let's assume that's how it is. Now, for kids to have a proper understand of relationships, between men and women (not just in romantic relationships, but in any sort of interactive relationship) then it's necessary for those kids to be around both scenarios. These kinds of things have been well-documented in the past; hence the problems with single-parents households, stereotypes involving no male role-model, father figures needed for daughters, etc. You hear about them all the time; they don't come from nowhere. Now, in order for these kids to have a proper understand of such things, like I said it's necessary for htem to be around it while growing up...where are they most likely to be around such things? That's right, the home. The home life has the most influence on any child growing up. That's why so many people carry on traits and characteristics of their parents, whether they like them or not. That's why divorces tend to carry down throught he generations; people do what they know.

So, in the end, my argument lies in the psychology of a proper upbringing of children in a home, based on the psychology of those children and how they're raised. Having two parents of the same sex would hardly prepare them to live in the real world.

That's probably how I would debate this issue.

Dumpy Dooby · 10-06-2006, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Having two parents of the same sex would hardly prepare them to live in the real world.

Is that inherently true? If not, then what factors are there that are exclusive to gay parents, that would lead one to conclude that they make bad parents or whatever? Considering the multitude of successful gay parents out there, I think you'll have a VERY difficult time answering these questions.

Perhaps it is a psychology thing, but I see no issues that would be exclusive to gay parents ... other than being gay, which obviously doesn't make the kids gay.

ballz2wallz · 10-06-2006, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

Is that inherently true? If not, then what factors are there that are exclusive to gay parents, that would lead one to conclude that they make bad parents or whatever? Considering the multitude of successful gay parents out there, I think you'll have a VERY difficult time answering these questions.

Perhaps it is a psychology thing, but I see no issues that would be exclusive to gay parents ... other than being gay, which obviously doesn't make the kids gay.

I just wrote a whole post answering your question about what is wrong with not having both a father and mother in a household with children (obviously aimed at single parents when the studies were done), and you still wonder what that has to do with gays?

READ MY POST.

Dumpy Dooby · 10-06-2006, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

I just wrote a whole post answering your question about what is wrong with not having both a father and mother in a household with children (obviously aimed at single parents when the studies were done), and you still wonder what that has to do with gays?

READ MY POST.

Again, EXCLUSIVE to gay couples.

I read your post (and then only quoted the part I wanted to respond to). None of your complaints in there are exclusive to gay couples. Girls can come from households with both parents and still have "daddy issues." So that point is kinda negated.

ballz2wallz · 10-06-2006, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

Again, EXCLUSIVE to gay couples.

I read your post (and then only quoted the part I wanted to respond to). None of your complaints in there are exclusive to gay couples. Girls can come from households with both parents and still have "daddy issues." So that point is kinda negated.

There isn't anything exclusive to gay couples. But that's like encouraging or condoning single-parents households or any other household not completely suitable for children to be raised.

Dumpy Dooby · 10-06-2006, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

There isn't anything exclusive to gay couples. But that's like encouraging or condoning single-parents households or any other household not completely suitable for children to be raised.

Hence, I asked you if it was INHERENTLY true that gay couples are not suitable for children to be raise. Obviously, you're saying it is.

A counter-example would be successful people that lead happy lives with great families that were raised by gay couples. Are you actually going to force me to find you such examples?

ballz2wallz · 10-06-2006, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

Hence, I asked you if it was INHERENTLY true that gay couples are not suitable for children to be raise. Obviously, you're saying it is.

Yes, just like it's not suitable for children to be raised in single-parent households. That's why the divorce rate is so terribly sad; it's a shame so many kids are raised in those conditions, and hardly surprising that the kids do the same when they are older. Do decent people come from single-parent households? Of course they can. Is it harder for them? I'm sure it is. Would I encourage it and wish it upon anybody? No way. In the same sense, I wouldn't encourage or condone gay parents on any child either. And I imagine the difficulties growing up with gay parents exceeds those of single parent households; the torment thos children are going to endure (by those around them...human nature of children is cruel) is going to be horrific.

Dumpy Dooby · 10-06-2006, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Yes, just like it's not suitable for children to be raised in single-parent households. That's why the divorce rate is so terribly sad; it's a shame so many kids are raised in those conditions, and hardly surprising that the kids do the same when they are older. Do decent people come from single-parent households? Of course they can. Is it harder for them? I'm sure it is. Would I encourage it and wish it upon anybody? No way.

I'm in favor of single-parent households if the parents don't get along.

In the same sense, I wouldn't encourage or condone gay parents on any child either.

First you'd have to prove that gay people promote bad values, which you have yet to do. Your opinion is that gay people are bad parents, but you haven't said anything that pertains specifically to gays. Also, come to think of it, this little argument has nothing to do with state-recognition of marriage, and it has more to do with whether or not gays should be allowed to adopt or have children.

And I imagine the difficulties growing up with gay parents exceeds those of single parent households; the torment thos children are going to endure (by those around them...human nature of children is cruel) is going to be horrific.

Is this "imagination" based on personal experience with gay couples raising children? Or is this based on presumption? And no, that question is not rhetorical; I'm curious to know if you've ever actually known a gay couple that raised a child.

ballz2wallz · 10-06-2006, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

I'm in favor of single-parent households if the parents don't get along.

"I'm in favor of cocain addiction as long as it's not heroine"

Again, you're comparing this with something worse. Try comparing it to the way it should be, like saying "I prefer a kid to growing up in a functional family than with a single parent"? That way, you promote family values, and aren't continually justifying it with something worse. If you continue to do that, you will always be justified in being mediocre. That's not what I strive for.

Your opinion is that gay people are bad parents,

I've never said such a thing. I imagine single parents are also good parents if you look at them as individuals, but I still don't encourage or condone such a situation. I'm not criticizing the individuals' parenting skills. I'm criticizing the situation.

Is this "imagination" based on personal experience with gay couples raising children? Or is this based on presumption? And no, that question is not rhetorical; I'm curious to know if you've ever actually known a gay couple that raised a child.

This 'imagination' is based on human nature, my own personal experiences as a child growing up and being tormented by other students (yes, I was the one getting swirlies, getting hung from the lockers by my underwear, or getting dumped in the trashcans), and by the general public reaction to homosexuals in general. You put two and two together and you get four. I don't think any of us know people our age that were raised by homosexual families, considering the whole concept seems to be so new. Sure, you might know some young kids, but do they really count when we're really considering the effects of growing up on the adult life?

Dumpy Dooby · 10-06-2006, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Again, you're comparing this with something worse. Try comparing it to the way it should be, like saying "I prefer a kid to growing up in a functional family than with a single parent"?

Because I don't make that distinction. Functionality, to me, is not dependent on the quantity, race, culture, sexual orientation, nor gender of the parents.

That way, you promote family values, and aren't continually justifying it with something worse. If you continue to do that, you will always be justified in being mediocre. That's not what I strive for.

That's suggesting that families with a good mother and father are intrinsically superior to families with single-parents. I'm not that audacious.

I'll touch on the rest of your post later. Gotta get back to work.

ballz2wallz · 10-06-2006, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

Because I don't make that distinction. Functionality, to me, is not dependent on the quantity, race, culture, sexual orientation, nor gender of the parents.

I've not mentioned anything about race, culture, sexual orientation either. Nor have I really said anything about functionality. What's 'functional' and 'what's best' are two separate issues. I'm talking about what's best for a kid.

That's suggesting that families with a good mother and father are intrinsically superior to families with single-parents. I'm not that audacious.

That's been welll documented

You bet I'm suggesting that.

Dumpy Dooby · 10-06-2006, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

I've not mentioned anything about race, culture, sexual orientation either. Nor have I really said anything about functionality. What's 'functional' and 'what's best' are two separate issues. I'm talking about what's best for a kid.

Well, you just shot yourself in the foot.

You said, "I prefer a kid to growing up in a functional family than with a single parent."

To which I'm responding: I don't make a distinction between "functional family" and "single parent."

motivez · 10-06-2006, 04:39 PM

There's really not. It's all based on the morality of the gay people and whether or not such "morally bankrupt" people could ever create a happy family or contribute to society by sharing every aspect of their lives the same way straight people do.

That kind of intolerant morality is based off religion.

A logical and secular approach would say that people, regardless of arbitrary factors like race, religion, sexuality, hair color, how tall they are, etc.. should be allowed the same opportunities, and given the same rights to build the type of life they want for themselves.

ballz2wallz · 10-06-2006, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

Well, you just shot yourself in the foot.

You said, "I prefer a kid to growing up in a functional family than with a single parent."

To which I'm responding: I don't make a distinction between "functional family" and "single parent."

Singe parents are considered dysfunctional families, especially when a divorce is involved. You know exactly what I'm talking about. Don't try to twist my words to say something they don't mean.