Official: North Korea Conducts Nuclear Test

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

[Stylerod]

McCain gets tough with N Korea now.

In his first direct challenge to the Democrat he expects to face in the 2008 presidential race, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) today alleged that Sen. Hillary Clinton and Democrats fail to recognize the gathering threat posed by North Korea in voting to block a national missile defense program and by supporting an approach to Asian diplomacy that McCain believes is a proven failure. McCain scheduled a press conference late this morning in Michigan, where he is campaigning for Senate candidate Mike Bouchard, to draw a bright line between himself and Clinton on national security, according to an adviser....

McCain, long an opponent of Pres. Bill Clinton's framework approach to North Korea, endorsed Bush's call for tough financial and trade sanctions against the country and for a full, enforceable embargo on arms. The United Nations, McCain said, has the right to interdict and inspect all cargo entering and departing North Korean waters. McCain will urge the UN and US policy markers to punish the North Koreans' "bad behavior." North Korea, McCain said, has received billions in energy assistance through the "framework agreement" negotiated by the Clinton administration in 2003 but managed to divert resources to secretly enrich uranium without detection.

Said McCain: "Prior to the agreement, every single time the Clinton Administration warned the Koreans not to do something -- not to kick out the IAEA inspectors, not to remove the fuel rods from their reactor -- they did it. And they were rewarded every single time by the Clinton Administration with further talks. We had a carrots and no sticks policy that only encouraged bad behavior. When one carrot didn't work, we offered another."...

[motivez]

Problem is McCain wants to treat them like a child, and so do Republicans in general.. and it's not limited to North Korea. We see it with how we talk to Iran and other nations, including some of our allies.. Like we're the adult, and they're the children who aren't "grown up enough" to be talked to on the same level.

When you say "bad behavior" and talk down to them like they're inferior, their superiority complex is going to kick in, and they're going to reject everything you want them to do.

Kim may be crazy, but he's not a child. He doesn't think like a child and he doesn't have the ego of a child.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by motivez

Problem is McCain wants to treat them like a child, and so do Republicans in general.. and it's not limited to North Korea. We see it with how we talk to Iran and other nations, including some of our allies.. Like we're the adult, and they're the children who aren't "grown up enough" to be talked to on the same level.

When you say "bad behavior" and talk down to them like they're inferior, their superiority complex is going to kick in, and they're going to reject everything you want them to do.

Kim may be crazy, but he's not a child. He doesn't think like a child and he doesn't have the ego of a child.

Ok, we can say it like this. Democrats want to treat them like a SPOILED child. When NK has a temper fit Democrats want to give in and give them what they want. "Money, here you go honey. Oil, sure baby. Nuclear reactors, of course. Now don't you start making bad weapons with this. What? You're going to anyway? Awww. Well, what else would you like? More money? Can we make another power plant for you?"

It's disgusting.

[motivez]

No, that's not what they want to do. There's no evidence they want to "give them everything they want", but again.. as I've pointed out numerous times, if you want something from a soverign nation, you have to be willing to give something up that they want in exchange.

That's why numerous countries have agreed, through diplomacy to give up their nuclear programs, but none have been forced.

North Korea wants security. Security in the form of a guarentee of no attack, and it wants to be able to feed its people. If they'd be willing to give up their nuclear program in exchange for that and allow open inspections, etc.. I have no problem with that honestly.

Contrary to what Bush believes, diplomacy is not talking down to another country, stating your demands, and then blowing them up (or threatening to) if they don't completely acquiesce.

It's give and take, and every President before Bush has understood that.

In fact though, what you're suggesting is EXACTLY what this Administration has allowed Europe to do with Iran. Where's your criticism of that? Surely we should be threatening them with bombs or something rather than trying to talk them down by offering them incentives to work with the international community!

Or is it just selective outrage because it happens to be the Democrats?

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by motivez

No, that's not what they want to do. There's no evidence they want to "give them everything they want", but again.. as I've pointed out numerous times, if you want something from a soverign nation, you have to be willing to give something up that they want in exchange.

Carter/Clinton already did that. NK lied and broke the agreement. Fuck NK. They can't be and should not be trusted.

[motivez]

So what's your alternative? And I guess most of my post was ignored?

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by motivez

So what's your alternative? And I guess most of my post was ignored?

Let's let the people that are most concerned with NK deal with them. Japan, SK, China, Russia etc.

We tried, they lied. Fuck 'em.

[motivez]

So essentially, you're suggesting we should outsource our foreign policy and security to a Communist nation. Gosh, yeah. Why didn't I think of that?

Oh, right, because it's a crappy idea.

We have an interest in that area of the world remaining secure. We have troops over there, and much of our economy depends on the stability of that part of the world.

We shouldn't leave other countries to do our bidding when we're not going to agree with how they handle it. China is not going to take the kid gloves off when it comes to NK, they're going to issue a statement, and that's going to be it.

It's like China, Russia and Iran, they're not going to vote for what we think needs to happens because their primary concern is Iranian stability and their oil flow.

[Thorgrim]

Clinton kept NK a non-nuclear power for 6 years, Bush yelled at them and they developed nukes

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Clinton kept NK a non-nuclear power for 6 years, Bush yelled at them and they developed nukes

No and no.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by motivez

So essentially, you're suggesting we should outsource our foreign policy and security to a Communist nation. Gosh, yeah. Why didn't I think of that?

Oh, right, because it's a crappy idea.

We have an interest in that area of the world remaining secure. We have troops over there, and much of our economy depends on the stability of that part of the world.

We shouldn't leave other countries to do our bidding when we're not going to agree with how they handle it. China is not going to take the kid gloves off when it comes to NK, they're going to issue a statement, and that's going to be it.

It's like China, Russia and Iran, they're not going to vote for what we think needs to happens because their primary concern is Iranian stability and their oil flow.

It's more their problem than ours. Like I said, we tried. Is the US going to sabbotage any talks. NO. Will the US be involved in talks in the background or foreground. Of course. At this point, I'm sick if it. And I'm sick of people wanting to bow to North Korea's blackmail AGAIN.

[Thorgrim]

12 October, 1994: the United States and North Korea signed the "Agreed Framework": North Korea agreed to freeze its plutonium production program in exchange for fuel oil, economic cooperation, and the construction of two modern light-water nuclear power plants. Eventually, North Korea's existing nuclear facilities were to be dismantled, and the spent reactor fuel taken out of the country.
October 1997: the spent fuel rods were encased in steel containers, under IAEA inspection. [5]
Wikipedia

During the Clinton Presidency NK had ZERO plutonium
Under Bush they got enough for a couple bombs worth, and then announced it, and now conduct tests
Think Progress » North Korea’s Atomic March

[Stylerod]

YouTube Video

Ok, I tried to use the you tube link, how do you imbed?

YouTube - The David Zucker Albright Ad


This is great!

[WickedLou9]

I have a stupid question. I have not seen anything that says we confirmed that they tested a nuke. All I have seen is that NK claimed to have tested a nuclear bomb underground. Given that they are wacko and entirely capable of making shit up, do we have any sort of verification that they actually did test a bomb? like a seismological event that took place or something?

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Ok, I tried to use the you tube link, how do you imbed?

YouTube - The David Zucker Albright Ad


This is great!

http://www.libertylounge.net/forums/45853-post20.html

Just put the trailing: 7h3GPc_yMCE
inside the yt tags

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I have a stupid question. I have not seen anything that says we confirmed that they tested a nuke. All I have seen is that NK claimed to have tested a nuclear bomb underground. Given that they are wacko and entirely capable of making shit up, do we have any sort of verification that they actually did test a bomb? like a seismological event that took place or something?

There was a seismological event, but it could have been from a large amount of conventional munitions.

I don't think anyone other than NK knows for sure right now.

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

There was a seismological event, but it could have been from a large amount of conventional munitions.

I don't think anyone other than NK knows for sure right now.

True, but it actually would have been more difficult to hide the setup of a conventional explosion.

Another possibility is the nuke was only partly successful

[Nonphixion]

Originally Posted by Kytro

True, but it actually would have been more difficult to hide the setup of a conventional explosion.

Another possibility is the nuke was only partly successful

Unless it was a 2-stage fission/hydrogen fusion device (which is impossible without a heavy-water reactor in order to create Deuterium [heavy hydrogen isotope 2H]). In a hydrogen thermonuclear bomb one uses the fission splitting of a conventional atom-bomb to create the pressure needed in the device for nuclear fusion, which is many times more powerful than initial fission reaction (simple splitting).

So if it is a primitive atom-bomb (it could not be thermo-nuclear/fusion) device then it either works or it doesn't.

[Kytro]