Campaign Reform - Page 3

kinggovernor · 10-12-2006, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

It is not free if it costs billions. Campaign finance has become insane. Absolutely no on is suggesting that you will not have the right to support and donate to the politician of your choice. The freedom of speech ends when a better person for the job cant raise enough money to run because big business knows that person wont do their bidding. All we get now is the best lawmakers money can buy. That doesnt mean we are getting the best lawmakers.

free speech is not free as in beer, it means that people have the freedom for political speech. Does freedom of speech end because there are too many people supporting one political parties with their time

It is basically the same arguement.

Someone voted those lawmakers into power, CEOs only get one vote too.

KatKanPlay · 10-12-2006, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

supporting interest groups is one the best way for people to get their government needs addressed. The AARP, NRA, Greenpeace etc all service their members rather nicely

These are non profit organizations. They need to pander to the people and not the politicians.

7th Ninjai · 10-12-2006, 08:05 PM

As long as votes can be bought, we'll have a corrupt Congress. Congress can't police itself when everyone is on the take. It really is that simple.

KatKanPlay · 10-12-2006, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

free speech is not free as in beer, it means that people have the freedom for political speech. Does freedom of speech end because there are too many people supporting one political parties with their time It is basically the same arguement.

Someone voted those lawmakers into power, CEOs only get one vote too.

And they expect at least 1 vote in return, and the good of citizens doesnt matter.

Tell me why it is okay for our lawmakers to be ruled by corporate money?

KatKanPlay · 10-12-2006, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by 7th Ninjai

As long as votes can be bought, we'll have a corrupt Congress. Congress can't police itself when everyone is on the take. It really is that simple.

According to the posts in this thread, that is perfectly okay. Amazing!!

kinggovernor · 10-12-2006, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

And they expect at least 1 vote in return, and the good of citizens doesnt matter.

then the citizens should not vote for the guy the next time around

Tell me why it is okay for our lawmakers to be ruled by corporate money?

because it is free speech

KatKanPlay · 10-14-2006, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

A corporatoin is just as much a people as you and I are; they just have more financial means to work with.

Can you tell me where in the Constitution or Bill of Rights, corporations are considered or declared citizens?

KatKanPlay · 10-14-2006, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

then the citizens should not vote for the guy the next time around

In many cases the "human" citizen has no clue as to why a certain congressman votes a certain way. Not voting for the guy the next time around doesnt fix appropriations and legislation that may have been passed in support of corporations agenda. This support for the corporate agenda is a direct return for the obligatory favors corporate donations paid for.

because it is free speech

Okay,so lawmakers and their legislative powers can be bought by the interests of corporate power and this is "Freedom of Speech"? If this is true, and corporations are considered citizens in the same way humans are considered citizens, then money=legislative power. Legislative power can then put the rights of corporations above that of the human citizen. In turn freedom of speech becomes less a human right and more a corporate right, and you think this is okay?

Diesel66 · 10-14-2006, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

Okay,so lawmakers and their legislative powers can be bought by the interests of corporate power and this is "Freedom of Speech"? If this is true, and corporations are considered citizens in the same way humans are considered citizens, then money=legislative power. Legislative power can then put the rights of corporations above that of the human citizen. In turn freedom of speech becomes less a human right and more a corporate right, and you think this is okay?

Realize that no law on earth will keep the rich and powerful from buying elections. So why do you want to keep the rest of us from having a say in elections ?

KatKanPlay · 10-14-2006, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Diesel66

Realize that no law on earth will keep the rich and powerful from buying elections. So why do you want to keep the rest of us from having a say in elections ?

I dont, I am talking exclusively about corporate power. I am not referring to any human citizen, rich or poor. There is a very distinct difference.

kinggovernor · 10-14-2006, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

Can you tell me where in the Constitution or Bill of Rights, corporations are considered or declared citizens?

A corporation is a legal entity created through the laws of its state of incorporation. Individual states have the power to promulgate laws relating to the creation, organization and dissolution of corporations.

The law treats a corporation as a legal "person" that has standing to sue and be sued, distinct from its stockholders. The legal independence of a corporation prevents shareholders from being personally liable for corporate debts. It also allows stockholders to sue the corporation through a derivative suit and makes ownership in the company (shares) easily transferable. The legal "person" status of corporations gives the business perpetual life; deaths of officials or stockholders do not alter the corporation's structure.

Corporations - Wex

KatKanPlay · 10-14-2006, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

Corporations - Wex

I see no where here where a corporation is recognized by the constitution as a citizen and therefore as a right to be recognized as such that its rights as a legal person carries the same rights as "human" citizen rights as stated in the Bill of Rights or the Constitution, i.e. freedom of speech.

kinggovernor · 10-14-2006, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

I see no where here where a corporation is recognized by the constitution as a citizen and therefore as a right to be recognized as such that its rights as a legal person carries the same rights as "human" citizen rights as stated in the Bill of Rights or the Constitution, i.e. freedom of speech.

the CEO makes the donation, that is his freedom of speech

KatKanPlay · 10-14-2006, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

the CEO makes the donation, that is his freedom of speech

The CEO is nothing but a piece of the corporation.

Out of his own pocket, as a citizen I have no issues with that.

motivez · 10-16-2006, 08:18 PM

What I said in another thread:

Campaign Finance is another thing. In the same way it prevents the very rich and corporations from buying votes.. it prevents ordinary people from pooling their resources together to take up an issue.

That said, it'd be nice if policy decisions were made based on the merit of an issue rather than the amount of money backing it.. though the amount of money backing it could definitely be seen in some instances as evidence of one policy being better than the other.

It's really complicated because I feel like there aren't enough people in America willing to pool enough resources to take on the very rich, which will always relegate them to an inferior position for getting their ideas across even if they organize

But on the other hand, it really does limit what people can do together.

motivez · 10-16-2006, 08:20 PM

Oh, I should also say that reading some of Scalia's opinions on the issue has been what's taken me to being completely pro-campaign finance reform to questioning how we should approach money in politics.

He's a very persuasive person.

kinggovernor · 10-17-2006, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by motivez

Oh, I should also say that reading some of Scalia's opinions on the issue has been what's taken me to being completely pro-campaign finance reform to questioning how we should approach money in politics.

He's a very persuasive person.

Diesel66 · 10-17-2006, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

I dont, I am talking exclusively about corporate power. I am not referring to any human citizen, rich or poor. There is a very distinct difference.

And who makes the decisions for the corporation ? PEOPLE

hsmith · 10-17-2006, 11:34 AM

Reforming the tax code and reducing the size of government would be the biggest help.

It is simple and you don't need to take away a single persons rights.

6SpeedTA95 · 10-17-2006, 11:36 AM

Corporations are considered citizens under the law and therefor trampling on their rights is trampling on the rights of the board and shareholder is it not?