America has now killed more Iraqi civilians than Saddam - Page 3

thomez · 10-11-2006, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by smokie700

agreed,

I see thread titles like this or even teh article and it just seems like politcal BS than trying to be a legit article. If the US had claimed to kill 600,000 fighters in iraq it still means that about 98% of that number were people trying to kill americans/iraqis. So therefore they deserved to die.

Well, if you used that logic, Bush would say we killed 30,000 Iraqi innocents/civilians, that would mean that they are only 2% of the total Iraqi deaths by America, which would be a staggering number of "bad guys". I don't think that is too logical.

smokie700 · 10-11-2006, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by thomez

Well, if you used that logic, Bush would say we killed 30,000 Iraqi innocents/civilians, that would mean that they are only 2% of the total Iraqi deaths by America, which would be a staggering number of "bad guys". I don't think that is too logical.

I'm saying that i feel that about 98% of the people killed by US troops were bad guys. maybe 90% at worst. I think the "bad guys" have killed way more than they are credited for.

Scrum · 10-11-2006, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by smokie700

I'm saying that i feel that about 98% of the people killed by US troops were bad guys. maybe 90% at worst. I think the "bad guys" have killed way more than they are credited for.

Link to the study you funded that came to this conclusion?

Or is there some truthiness going on?

Actually you said "feel" so we will go with #2.

hsmith · 10-11-2006, 11:51 AM

I just don't know how to respond to the statements in this thread.

smokie700 · 10-11-2006, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

Link to the study you funded that came to this conclusion?

Or is there some truthiness going on?

Actually you said "feel" so we will go with #2.

I'm stating my personal opinion. And since their are no credible sources of how many deaths were caused by insurgents or americans. I will continue to believe that until proven wrong.

thomez · 10-11-2006, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by smokie700

I'm saying that i feel that about 98% of the people killed by US troops were bad guys. maybe 90% at worst. I think the "bad guys" have killed way more than they are credited for.

yes, your logic still falls short here though

if Bush admits we have killed 30,000 Iraqi civilians, and that is only 2% of the deaths, that brings a total death toll to 1.5 million people

1% = 15,000

100% = 1,500,000

if Bush did indeed say he thought that America had killed 30,000 Iraqi civilians, which I doubt - maybe he suggested that was the total civilian deaths? but that would be pretty preposterous, with over 3k dying a month right now.

Scrum · 10-11-2006, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by hsmith

I just don't know how to respond to the statements in this thread.

Originally Posted by thomez

I don't even know how to respond to that with a serious reply.

You guys could start a "WTF did he just say!?" committee and clean this place up.

Scrum · 10-11-2006, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by smokie700

I'm stating my personal opinion. And since their are no credible sources of how many deaths were caused by insurgents or americans. I will continue to believe that until proven wrong.

So you are using your opinion, which has no evidence, over a study that used evidence to come to a conclusion.

Gotcha.

smokie700 · 10-11-2006, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by thomez

yes, your logic still falls short here though

if Bush admits we have killed 30,000 Iraqi civilians, and that is only 2% of the deaths, that brings a total death toll to 1.5 million people

1% = 15,000

100% = 1,500,000

if Bush did indeed say he thought that America had killed 30,000 Iraqi civilians, which I doubt - maybe he suggested that was the total civilian deaths? but that would be pretty preposterous, with over 3k dying a month right now.

I don't get what your trying to prove. I am stating that i feel that out of the total number of deaths caused by US troops. between 2%-10% were civilians and the rest were bad guys. If the US killed 100,000 people in Iraq the between 2,000-10,000 were civilians and the rest were baddies.

smokie700 · 10-11-2006, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

So you are using your opinion, which has no evidence, over a study that used evidence to come to a conclusion.

Gotcha.

exactly what makes this study truthful? because it was written?

mididoctors · 10-11-2006, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by smokie700

I'm saying that i feel that about 98% of the people killed by US troops were bad guys. maybe 90% at worst.

well 65% of all statistics are made up on the spot...

I take issue with percentages displayed as a guess.. as thou it increases the accuracy of the guess

I would be happier with something like

"I guess US forces have killed more bad guys than innocents by a healthy margin"

about as accurate as you can get and remain credible

frankly the information on Iraqi casualties is poor and the fact the US forces do not readily admit to collecting such data or publish it, exposes the mission to the vagaries of studies such as this.. which i doubt

400 people per day?

hmmmm, surprising if true

Boris
London

Scrum · 10-11-2006, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by smokie700

exactly what makes this study truthful? because it was written?

I have never said it was truthful.
I said it's based on evidence, which is better than an opinion based on feeling.

CrackSeed · 10-11-2006, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by smokie700

exactly what makes this study truthful? because it was written?

exactly what makes your opinion even remotely valid? is it based on any evidence?

thomez · 10-11-2006, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by smokie700

I don't get what your trying to prove. I am stating that i feel that out of the total number of deaths caused by US troops. between 2%-10% were civilians and the rest were bad guys. If the US killed 100,000 people in Iraq the between 2,000-10,000 were civilians and the rest were baddies.

"It is more than 20 times the estimate of 30,000 civilian deaths that President Bush gave in a speech in December."

Bush was estimating total civilian deaths in December, not American related ones, that is my mistake.

10-11-2006, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by thomez

"It is more than 20 times the estimate of 30,000 civilian deaths that President Bush gave in a speech in December."

Bush was estimating total civilian deaths in December, not American related ones, that is my mistake.

30,000 civilian deaths at this point last year seems reasonable. Tack on another 30,000 for this year and we're at a total of 60,000...a far cry from 600,000.

thomez · 10-11-2006, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

30,000 civilian deaths at this point last year seems reasonable. Tack on another 30,000 for this year and we're at a total of 60,000...a far cry from 600,000.

seems low to me, granted that we admit and know about over 3k a month at this point, plus the deaths related to bombing etc at the initial invasion

how many deaths never get to our count? probably quite a lot

hsmith · 10-11-2006, 12:04 PM

Clintons embargos in the 90's killed 1.5 million.

Lol

smokie700 · 10-11-2006, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by CrackSeed

exactly what makes your opinion even remotely valid? is it based on any evidence?

becuase i am an infantry soldier and know what training is involved for our troops. I know that while there are bad troops serving they are a handful and the majority of troops will not kill unless they are killing combatants. any civilians killed are collateral damage and we try to keep that low.

phreak · 10-11-2006, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

buried, Iraqis don't have a set custom of taking a body and reporting it to the morgue, because they have to give personal information that always leaks to militia groups that are dangerous

if they don't report it to a morgue, where do the death certificates come from?

The Johns Hopkins team conducted its study using a methodology known as "cluster sampling." That involved randomly picking 47 clusters of households for a total 1,849 households, scattered across Iraq. Team members interviewed each household about any deaths in the family during the 40 months since the invasion, as well as in the year before the invasion. The team says it reviewed death certificates for 92% of all deaths reported.

ballz2wallz · 10-11-2006, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by phreak

if they don't report it to a morgue, where do the death certificates come from?