Homosexuality, nature or nuture - Page 3

IminWonderland · 10-13-2006, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

I cant imagine choosing to be gay. I can better imagine having sex with a person of the same sex for sex's sake, but that doesnt make you gay it just makes you a pervert, right?

I disagree at that being a perversion. One might prefer sex to include anal, but that doesn't make one a homosexual. Sexual preference has more to do with attraction and arousal than it does with the acts itself, because cunnilingus, anal sex, and fellatio can be preformed between Men and Women in all combinations.

At the same time, being aroused by the same sex does not mean one is homosexual. Some people are not exclusively aroused by just one sex. Personally, I can find myself aroused by both. But, for my personal relationship, and my marriage, I happened to marry a man. That's just my preference.

The debate with the "gay marriage", is essentially telling people who they can and can not love, because parts of our society feel this homage to tradition, and think just because they feel something to be right, it has to be right for everyone. I hope by the time my son is in High School, and we have a new generation running things, this attitude changes.

kinggovernor · 10-13-2006, 04:42 PM

it is both

KatKanPlay · 10-13-2006, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

I disagree at that being a perversion. One might prefer sex to include anal, but that doesn't make one a homosexual. Sexual preference has more to do with attraction and arousal than it does with the acts itself, because cunnilingus, anal sex, and fellatio can be preformed between Men and Women in all combinations.

At the same time, being aroused by the same sex does not mean one is homosexual. Some people are not exclusively aroused by just one sex. Personally, I can find myself aroused by both. But, for my personal relationship, and my marriage, I happened to marry a man. That's just my preference.

The debate with the "gay marriage", is essentially telling people who they can and can not love, because parts of our society feel this homage to tradition, and think just because they feel something to be right, it has to be right for everyone. I hope by the time my son is in High School, and we have a new generation running things, this attitude changes.

Okay, pervert was the wrong word to use, but it worked so damn well in the sentence. Im sure I will get pounced more than once for using it. Should be interesting.

Nonphixion · 10-13-2006, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

I believe what you are talking about is when the XY chromosome signals the Mom to release testosterone to the baby to develop the Male genetalia. I believe that happens about week 8 or 9?

I think that alot of this arguement stems from how we have defined gender in only two classifications, and used a duality. But this isn't something that's one or the other.

7

SICKGUY · 10-13-2006, 09:59 PM

there is no choice involved, the same way i never chose to like women, i just did

and its the same old argument, but if you really had a choice, why would you choose to be gay? would it be for the hip fashion sense, or all that fun discrimination against you?

SICKGUY · 10-13-2006, 10:05 PM

Survival of genetic homosexual traits explained - 13 October 2004 - New Scientist

JaJae · 10-13-2006, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by SICKGUY

there is no choice involved, the same way i never chose to like women, i just did

and its the same old argument, but if you really had a choice, why would you choose to be gay? would it be for the hip fashion sense, or all that fun discrimination against you?

You made not have made a conscious decision, but that doesn't rule out nurture.

Dumpy Dooby · 10-13-2006, 10:11 PM

There is no gay gene. WTF is wrong with you people?

KatKanPlay · 10-13-2006, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

There is no gay gene. WTF is wrong with you people?

Its not just a gene, it is a gene that has gone terribly wrong.

Dumpy Dooby · 10-13-2006, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

Its not just a gene, it is a gene that has gone terribly wrong.

What the hell is wrong people? "Gay gene"?!?! I thought that shit went out of style in the 90's.

Kytro · 10-13-2006, 11:28 PM

There is eveidence to indicate there is a genetic predisposition, but I doub it's a single gene.

Nature does not have intention

Dumpy Dooby · 10-14-2006, 03:46 AM

Originally Posted by Kytro

There is eveidence to indicate there is a genetic predisposition, but I doub it's a single gene.

Nature does not have intention

Natural predisposition? yes, in some (probably most) instances.
Genetic? No.

Evolutionarily speaking, it would have to be caused by the mother. Gay men don't exactly procreate. It would not have lasted all these years in humans. There's evidence to suggest that it has to do with occurances in the womb. It depends on the intervals between births given to male siblings, youngest of male offsprings is more likely to be gay than the oldest ones. Seeing as how most pack animals have natural biological methods for controlling their immediate population, that makes sense. Foxes can control the size of their litters. Sparsely populated areas will produce large litters, while densely populated areas will produce small litters. Kangaroos can halt the growth process of an embryo for a good six months before deciding to giving birth.

mididoctors · 10-14-2006, 04:12 AM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

Natural predisposition? yes, in some (probably most) instances.
Genetic? No.

Evolutionarily speaking, it would have to be caused by the mother. Gay men don't exactly procreate. It would not have lasted all these years in humans. There's evidence to suggest that it has to do with occurances in the womb. It depends on the intervals between births given to male siblings, youngest of male offsprings is more likely to be gay than the oldest ones. Seeing as how most pack animals have natural biological methods for controlling their immediate population, that makes sense. Foxes can control the size of their litters. Sparsely populated areas will produce large litters, while densely populated areas will produce small litters. Kangaroos can halt the growth process of an embryo for a good six months before deciding to giving birth.

not up on this gene stuff but gays can and do procreate nit just out of overt choice to make the effort but previous eras placed roles that meant they lived dual lives

Oscar wild was a screaming queen but he had a wife and kids nad even chased his wife to be in a prolonged romantic effort...

if gaydom is genetic then being selected against seems unlikely given the possibilities of human relationships

Boris
london

Dumpy Dooby · 10-14-2006, 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by mididoctors

not up on this gene stuff but gays can and do procreate nit just out of overt choice to make the effort but previous eras placed roles that meant they lived dual lives

Oscar wild was a screaming queen but he had a wife and kids nad even chased his wife to be in a prolonged romantic effort...

if gaydom is genetic then being selected against seems unlikely given the possibilities of human relationships

Boris
london

It wouldn't last the test of time in evolution if it were actually genetically passed through the males. But if that's not enough for you, we can consider the fact that there isn't any evidence to suggest that there actually is a gay gene.

mididoctors · 10-14-2006, 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

It wouldn't last the test of time in evolution if it were actually genetically passed through the males. But if that's not enough for you, we can consider the fact that there isn't any evidence to suggest that there actually is a gay gene.

why?

how many successful matings does it need to survive?

why would the gene necessarily be passed through the male solely.. it may not express itself as a behavior modifier in females yet still be present.. the argument concerning procreation is not strong to my mind..

as for the gay gene.. i am quite willing to believe it doesn't exist.

but that does not mean false arguments should be made concerning its existence.. or not

Boris
London

Diesel66 · 10-14-2006, 10:49 AM

There may be a natural cause for homosexuality, but adults/society choosing to be homosexual is the majority. Look at the Roman/Greek societies where homosexual releationships were normal and even pushed, all the nobels were gay. Compare that to today where 1-3% is gay for longterm.

KatKanPlay · 10-14-2006, 11:23 AM

A homosexual is not a homosexual for the sake of sex.

Gay men tend to be more promiscuous than gay women simply because the male sex drive is much stronger in men than in women. There is more to being gay than just the sex.

garbagemanlb · 10-14-2006, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Diesel66

There may be a natural cause for homosexuality, but adults/society choosing to be homosexual is the majority. Look at the Roman/Greek societies where homosexual releationships were normal and even pushed, all the nobels were gay. Compare that to today where 1-3% is gay for longterm.

Then, considering the illegality of being able to marry a fellow gay person, why don't they just make it easier on themselves and just choose to be straight? If it's that simple, you'd think most of them would just choose to be straight and make their lives easier.

IminWonderland · 10-14-2006, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by garbagemanlb

Then, considering the illegality of being able to marry a fellow gay person, why don't they just make it easier on themselves and just choose to be straight? If it's that simple, you'd think most of them would just choose to be straight and make their lives easier.

It's more than just making something easier on yourself. We are talking about the essential self, the identity. And knowing more who you are, and not what everyone wants to see you be, is a struggle that every person goes through.

It would be alot easier for all us to conform to every norm in society. But, that's not who we are as individuals.

Someone who has an attraction to someone of the same sex, and has found that one person in their life that makes them feel fufilled, and makes them happy, that's not something that people find every day. That's not something you will get when you just go along with the "norm" of what society says you should want, and who you should love.

And Kat is right, there is more to homosexuality than just the sex. It's not all about sex. It's about who a person clicks with, it's about who you find in this mass world to not only love, but to love you back. That isn't something society can give the individual. There is no love coming from societal pressure. And I think if this world needs anything, it's alot more love.

Dumpy Dooby · 10-14-2006, 02:34 PM

I don't choose which girls I'm going to like. The type of girls to which I am attracted is not "genetic" (Freud would say that it's based on how I perceive my mother). Some guys' type of girl ... is a guy. Does that make sense to anyone?

It fucking baffles me that people actually debate this shit. Ugh..