President Bush suggests Hezbollah wants to stop emerging democracy in Lebanon

thomez · 07-27-2006, 12:33 PM

but isn't the root of the problem that a high % of Muslim Lebanese are shunned (through their Constitution) from their democratic process and unable to hold high positions in government?

DosEquis · 07-27-2006, 02:28 PM

What if they do not want a democracy?

motivez · 07-27-2006, 02:42 PM

lol

Many of these Hezbollah were democratically elected in the same way that Hamas was. If you're going to promote Democracy, be prepared for people with different values and goals and perspectives to elect those you don't like.

7960 · 07-27-2006, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

lol

Many of these Hezbollah were democratically elected in the same way that Hamas was. If you're going to promote Democracy, be prepared for people with different values and goals and perspectives to elect those you don't like.

And if we don't like them we have every right to oppose them.

motivez · 07-27-2006, 02:47 PM

Sure, we should oppose them politically, not militarily ( in general ).

The whole point of Democracy and "freedom being on the march" is allowing these people who he believes are so oppressed to have their say when it comes to who is running their governments. They've gotten that chance and it's backfired politically for Bush who was apparently under the misguided impression that they want American style freedom. They don't.

If we decide that we know better than the population, and attempt to overthrow every government that's elected that we dislike, it makes us no better than other regimes who brutally impose their will on the people, ie: the Taliban, etc.

7960 · 07-27-2006, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

Sure, we should oppose them politically, not militarily ( in general ).
...
If we decide that we know better than the population, and attempt to overthrow every government that's elected that we dislike, it makes us no better than other regimes who brutally impose their will on the people, ie: the Taliban, etc.

We're opposing them militarily? I didn't know we were fighting lebanon/hezbollah/hamas.

We wanted a democratically elected govt, sure. But since they elected terrorist pieces of shit that doesn't mean we should be required to support them, like them, or even be civil to them. Hezbollah are terrorists. Until Palestinians get rid of them palestine supports terrorism. We oppose terrorism and should withdraw any and all support whether it's money or arms or politics...easy as that.

Donkey® · 07-27-2006, 02:59 PM

Hezbollah isn't in Palestine. You're thinking of Hamas. And who the fuck are we or Israel to tell them they can't elect who they want to run their countries? It's not like we have much better running this one.

motivez · 07-27-2006, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

We're opposing them militarily? I didn't know we were fighting lebanon/hezbollah/hamas.

We wanted a democratically elected govt, sure. But since they elected terrorist pieces of shit that doesn't mean we should be required to support them, like them, or even be civil to them. Hezbollah are terrorists. Until Palestinians get rid of them palestine supports terrorism. We oppose terrorism and should withdraw any and all support whether it's money or arms or politics...easy as that.

We are by proxy through supplying military equipment on rush order to Israel, as well as resisting every other civilized country in the world's call for a cease fire.

You view them as terrorists, their people view them as freedom fighters and heroes who helped free Lebanon. Why do people fail to recognize that other people in vastly different cultures are going to view things with a completely different take, that's just as valid for them as our views of our government are for us?

If there is military agression, then, sure, that's different. But simply disliking someone does not mean we should use our military to overthrow them when they have been democratically elected.

We have a long history of doing that and I don't believe it's worked out well for the people who've suffered under the regimes we've installed in various countries many, many times.

motivez · 07-27-2006, 03:10 PM

Oh, and let me put this out there for you

If some of uber liberal European government started telling you.. "You know what, George Bush is a terrorist. He's a war criminal. He deserves to be hanged."

Would you believe him? Would you go along with it? Would you support that view, switching it from whatever opinion you hold now?

No? Then what on earth makes you think we can do the same thing to Lebanese people and they're going to suddenly see the "err" of their ways of thinking?

Scrum · 07-27-2006, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

Oh, and let me put this out there for you

If some of uber liberal European government started telling you.. "You know what, George Bush is a terrorist. He's a war criminal. He deserves to be hanged."

Would you believe him? Would you go along with it? Would you support that view, switching it from whatever opinion you hold now?

No? Then what on earth makes you think we can do the same thing to Lebanese people and they're going to suddenly see the "err" of their ways of thinking?

Because we are America and we are always right and don't have to listen to anyone.

7960 · 07-27-2006, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Hezbollah isn't in Palestine. You're thinking of Hamas.

My bad.

And who the fuck are we or Israel to tell them they can't elect who they want to run their countries? It's not like we have much better running this one.

We're someone who gives them money. All I'm saying is if they elected someone we don't like, fuck them. We should stop sending money.

I mow a 40'x10' section of my neighbor's yard because I like him. If he moved out and a complete douchebag moved in I'd stop mowing it.

Donkey® · 07-27-2006, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

My bad.

We're someone who gives them money. All I'm saying is if they elected someone we don't like, fuck them. We should stop sending money.

I mow a 40'x10' section of my neighbor's yard because I like him. If he moved out and a complete douchebag moved in I'd stop mowing it.

I agree 8493%. Why we continually give money to people that don't agree with us i'll never understand.

7960 · 07-27-2006, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

You view them as terrorists, their people view them as freedom fighters and heroes who helped free Lebanon. Why do people fail to recognize that other people in vastly different cultures are going to view things with a completely different take, that's just as valid for them as our views of our government are for us?

I don't fail to recognize it, I just don't care. If they think hamas or hezbollah is doing good for them, great. But that doesn't mean we're still required to support them. We need to say "we think they're terrorists" and GTFO and that includes money and political backing.

archangel003 · 07-27-2006, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by thomez

but isn't the root of the problem that a high % of Muslim Lebanese are shunned (through their Constitution) from their democratic process and unable to hold high positions in government?

Lebanon has by far the largest proportion of Christians of any Arab country, but both Christians and Muslims are sub-divided into many splinter sects. All population statistics are by necessity controversial, and all sects have a vested interest in inflating their own numbers. It is not uncommon to hear both Sunnis, Shi'as and Maronites (the three largest sects) claim that their particular religious affiliation holds a majority in the country - adding up to over 150% of the total population, even before counting the other sects. One of the rare things that most Lebanese religious leaders will agree on, is to avoid a new general census, out of fear that it could trigger a new round of sectarian conflict. The last official census was performed in 1932.

motivez · 07-27-2006, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

I don't fail to recognize it, I just don't care. If they think hamas or hezbollah is doing good for them, great. But that doesn't mean we're still required to support them. We need to say "we think they're terrorists" and GTFO and that includes money and political backing.

That's politically and not something I'm against.

But installing some puppet government or overthrowing them in favor of a US backed dictator/person regime has historically not worked out so well for the people in those countries.

archangel003 · 07-27-2006, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

That's politically and not something I'm against.

But installing some puppet government or overthrowing them in favor of a US backed dictator/person regime has historically not worked out so well for the people in those countries.

That's because things like that aren't about the people. It's part of the great big game of Risk that governments play.

thomez · 07-27-2006, 04:11 PM

soo...

why do we continue to push for democracy in the Middle East if there is virtually no chance they will elect pro-US groups? it just legitimizes those groups as the wants of the people...

how does it help us to setup an anti-US democracy instead of an anti-US dictatorship?

and why does the Lebanese Constitution forbid certain people from holding high positions?

archangel003 · 07-27-2006, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by thomez

soo...

why do we continue to push for democracy in the Middle East if there is virtually no chance they will elect pro-US groups? it just legitimizes those groups as the wants of the people...

how does it help us to setup an anti-US democracy instead of an anti-US dictatorship?

and why does the Lebanese Constitution forbid certain people from holding high positions?

The US isn't really pushing for democracy in the Middle East, that's probably just part of the ruse.

As far as I know the Lebanese Constitution dosen't do that anymore. The Lebanese legal system has been pretty FUBAR since all those wars.

thomez · 07-27-2006, 07:11 PM

very recently tv news was talking about the Constitution so I believe it is still that way

Thorgrim · 07-27-2006, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by thomez

very recently tv news was talking about the Constitution so I believe it is still that way

By law certain executive positions have to be by a Shia, a Sunni, and a Christian, and one by a Druze I think

It was a compromise to get them to stop killing each other

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taif_Agreement
The accords established a cabinet divided equally between Christians and Muslims