For Debate: The Government Should Be Overthrown

[stolz25]

Originally Posted by thatguyoverthere

So the question remains: why don't you guys start your own country? Seriously. It'd be a lot easier (and more realisically actually have a chance of ever happening) than overthrowing the US government.

Ah, but where to start it? Think the US would sell off a piece of Alaska for someone to start a country? Do you think any country would? Really, this option is every bit as unrealistic as overthrowing a current government. And while it looks impossible now, the US government will eventually collapse of it's own accord anyway. You can only spend so much money afterall. It won't take any overthrowing.

[snjmom]

You can only spend so much money afterall. It won't take any overthrowing.

I don't know, Germany is still going strong.

It shouldn't be too hard if you buy an island. If Brando can do it, Libertarian/Anarchists could, too.

[stolz25]

Originally Posted by snjmom

I don't know, Germany is still going strong.

You'll have to be more specific here. I don't know enough German history to know exactly what you are referring to.

Originally Posted by snjmom

It shouldn't be too hard if you buy an island. If Brando can do it, Libertarian/Anarchists could, too.

This is in no way a realistic option for me, though I suppose there are people out there who could theoretically do it. Of course if you can still find uninhabited islands there are good reasons for it to be empty.

[thatguyoverthere]

Originally Posted by stolz25

Ah, but where to start it? Think the US would sell off a piece of Alaska for someone to start a country? Do you think any country would? Really, this option is every bit as unrealistic as overthrowing a current government.

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But seriously, like SNJmom said, if Brando could do it, you could too. What's with this defeatist attitude anyway? Would Abraham Lincoln have just given up?

Originally Posted by stolz25

And while it looks impossible now, the US government will eventually collapse of it's own accord anyway. You can only spend so much money afterall. It won't take any overthrowing.

You're probably right about that one, sorry to say.

[snjmom]

You'll have to be more specific here. I don't know enough German history to know exactly what you are referring to.

Hyperinflationary 30's, world war, split nation, reabsorbing the former communist nation.

Really, I doubt it's the end of the country. Wealth re-set, maybe, but not the end of the country.

[stolz25]

Originally Posted by snjmom

Hyperinflationary 30's, world war, split nation, reabsorbing the former communist nation.

So you're using a politically unstable period in which one of the worst people ever to rule anywhere came to power as an example that a government can spend money indefinitely with no problem? When you mentioned Germany I was absolutely sure you couldn't mean this.

[acand4thefuture]

For to long now have two parties ruled our great country. Atour country’s inception our forefathers struggled against a great tyranny that ruled over them. This great tyranny not only over taxed them but if failed at its most basic and fundamental obligation to preserve the peace of its citizens, promote their prosperity and happiness, reunite opinion, cultivate a spiritof freedom from prejudice or malice , moderation, charity and forbearance toward one another. My fellow Americans,Georgians, citizens, neighbors, brothers, and sisters it does not take much insight to see that much of this tyranny exists today. Are we a sovereign (free from external control) people or is our government the sovereign entity.The people are in truth the only legitimate proprietors of the soil and government. It is the people, to whom all authority belongs. Somewhere along the way we the people have relinquished this natural right. We have allowed ourselves to be divided and neither us or those we appoint for us have been held accountable for the removal of sovereignty from the people. If there were to be a revolution it must indeed be a revolution that emanates from the hearts and minds all citizens. We have fallen asleep on our watch and allowed the enemies of liberty to sneak in a relieve us of it. The protection of true freedom must always be held as our highest priority. As a famous patriot once said “I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man”.

[acand4thefuture]

The details of this plan can be argued till dooms day.
When viewed from a far less magnified view it seems it does not meet its goals.
Thus the logic for this entire proposed reform is flawed. Depending on you objective
or what your objective is.

Stated purpose from D.C. Cut cost & Insured the uninsured.

Proposal = A public health plan ran by the gov.( simplified of course)

A public plan would solve the uninsured problem.

Does it cut cost ?

What are the cost of health care ?

Figures from 2007

National Health Expenditures $2.2 Trillion

National Physician Care Expenditures $490 Billion
National Hospital Care Expenditures $700 Billion
National Nursing Home Care Expenditures $ 130 Billion
National Health Care Equipment Expenditures $ 100 Billion
National Prescription Drug Expenditures $250 Billion

Who profits and how much ?

These were just the easy ones to find.

PX Industry had $ 350 B in sales
Health Insurance Industry over $ 30 B in profits

On Fortune 500's List of most profitable industries
# 2 PX 15.8% of total revenue as profit #4 Medical Products & Equipment 15.2%
# 9 Insurance Health & Life 10.6%

To help ensure the status quo on U.S. drug regulation and pricing, the
pharmaceutical industry has thousands of lobbyists in Washington, DC
that lobby Congress and protect their interests. The pharmaceutical
industry spent $855 million, more than any other industry, on lobbying
activities from 1998 to 2006, according to the non-partisan Center
for Public Integrity.

For 2008 insurance was the 8th among industries in political contributions
to members of Congress, giving $28,654,121, of which 51% was given to
Democrats and 49% to Republicans

Obviously there are many, many, many more with irons in the fire so to speak.


The insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies have the best of both
worlds now with heavy government subsidizing of both industries by favored tax
breaks, favored underwriting rules, insurance companies can also help businesses
Cherry pick risk pools and have employees fired / laid off with hire and fire at will laws.

Ins. Co. - also richly subsidized by the government for -
( for the very risk pools they do not have to cover under the private plans) their
Medicare /medicaid divisions Obama said today that insurance companies
get about 177 Billion in your tax dollars for medicare
He did not make mention what Insurance companies get for Medicaid.
( The insurance industry does an excellent job with these Government programs)

What will the insurance industry get out of this new health care plan and what
is being pushed by the industries - make no mistake the pharmaceutical
industry and insurance industry own the American health care system -
both the private and the government portion - they plan on keeping it
profitable and keeping control - Of both Private and the present medicare/medicaid programs.

For health insurance industry - the government will add " government
risk pools for pre existing condition person" - already the profit side
of insurance companies do not have to cover medicare and medicaid
clients except under richly government subsidized medicare and
medicaid divisions or as noted Chronic Mental health and Chemical
dependents done by local agencies - Social services.
Now new risk pools will be added for government funding portion the -
your pre-existing people. Insurance Co will also push to get further
deregulation of the industry and favored tax breaks saying this will
reduce costs to client's.


Have the cost really been targeted for cutting ?

What about the cost of paying for the plan ?

The CBO analysis estimated the net impact of the Health care bill
at $1.04 trillion over the decade spanning 2010 to 2019.

According to the 2009 federal Budget our entire receipts are $ 2.5 trillion
which left us with a deficit of $ 410 Billion in 2008.

There are entities that have far too much invested to be cut out.

I submit as I have stated in another post that these matters can best be
dealt with at the state and local level. Who knows better the needs of
a locality D.C ? I deeply believe that this is the case in all matters
domestic. If I am wrong and we only implemented our plan locally
at least an entire country would not be stuck with another broken
mismanaged gov. bureaucracy

One last though from a well known American.

"It is not by the consolidation or concentration of powers, but by their
distribution that good government is effected. Were not this great
country already divided into States, that division must be made that
each might do for itself what concerns itself directly and what it can
so much better do than a distant authority. Every state again is divided
into counties, each to take care of what lies within its local bounds;
each county again into townships or wards, to manage minuter details;
and every ward into farms, to be governed each by its individual proprietor
... It is by this partition of cares descending in gradation from general to
particular that the mass of human affairs may be best managed for the
good and prosperity of all."

[snjmom]

Why yes, I do use that as an example of a country going through a hyper-inflationary period that still remains intact and has had an unbroken history of legitimate leaders rather than coups and rebellions. Are you really offering the current political landscape as the textbook definition of political stability? Didn't Texas just offer to secede? Don't you get the e-mails about Divorce American style? Do we really act as a nation united? Aren't anarcho afficianodos gleeful?

I also use modern day Hiroshima and Nagasaki as an example of why the lone nuke terrorist really isn't the end of the world as we know it.