Why is running a deficit only bad...

Scrum · 07-29-2009, 02:01 PM

...when a Democrat is in office?

Nobody was complaining about the cost of the Bush tax cuts or the Iraq war.

The Great Catpiss · 07-29-2009, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Scrum

...when a Democrat is in office?

Nobody was complaining about the cost of the Bush tax cuts or the Iraq war.

1. Nobody was complaining? I saw at least 4 years of bitching about Bush, and I also participated in much of it. I also defended Bush from bogus accusations. While I think he was the worst president ever, he didn't deserve a lot of the ignorant crap that was thrown at him. I feel he earned the worst president ever nomination, but Obama might just be the person to take that award away from him.
2. The tax cuts and cost of war are miniscule compared to the size of spending that has happened lately.
3. While I disagreed with Bush's tax policies, tax refunds/credits might have been the best option. Obama should have distributed $5000 to every adult in the US in 4 quarterly payments of $1250 each. $1250 per payment because a lot of americans would blow $5000 irresponsibly and need bailed out again. With smaller payments, they might not blow all of it irresponsibly. By doing so, we would have had instant trickle up recovery at a much lower cost. It would have done much more to help the automakers, banks... than the piss poor crap that actually happened. I didn't support the Bush tax cuts, but some of them did likely do a lot of good.

kinggovernor · 07-29-2009, 02:14 PM

yes they did, it cost the Republicans both houses of Congress and ultimately the White House

stolz25 · 07-29-2009, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by The Great Catpiss

$1250 per payment because a lot of americans would blow $5000 irresponsibly and need bailed out again.

I believe the majority of the previous stimulus went toward paying off debt, which I imagine is why they didn't do it again. While paying off debt is good of course, it doesn't earn them any points because it doesn't "stimulate" the economy.

Stylerod · 07-29-2009, 02:37 PM

WTF? I bitched about Bush's spending all the time. I beleive I even said he "spent like a drunken democrat" on one post.

Stylerod · 07-29-2009, 02:40 PM

And when it comes to a deficit Bush was a little league player compaired to an All Star like Obama.

And what was that story the other day? If we spend the max of estimates in health care it could cost 200+ trillion?

Donkey® · 07-29-2009, 02:47 PM

And Obama is spending money trying to help America...not Iraqis stuck in rape rooms.

Stylerod · 07-29-2009, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

And Obama is spending money trying to help America...not Iraqis stuck in rape rooms.

No he isn't. He's spending money to gain control of a huge portion of american business.

Donkey® · 07-29-2009, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Stylerod

No he isn't. He's spending money to gain control of a huge portion of american business.

"Huge portion?" Is this another "socialism" scare tactic speeches? .001% of businesses controlled by the government isn't socialism.

Stylerod · 07-29-2009, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

"Huge portion?" Is this another "socialism" scare tactic speeches? .001% of businesses controlled by the government isn't socialism.

You're right. .001% wouldn't be

Neither would .0000004% or even 0000000000009%.

Good point!

JaJae · 07-29-2009, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Scrum

...when a Democrat is in office?

Nobody was complaining about the cost of the Bush tax cuts or the Iraq war.

Of course people were complaining about it. Why do you think the Republicans lost control of Congress in 06 and lost control of the White House? Number one reason: economic policies.

What sheer ignorance...

And by the way, people were complaining about the Bush tax cuts... they were liberal. Conservatives don't mind tax cuts and don't want to see the Bush tax cuts repealed. What they want is lower taxes to stimulate growth in the declining economy and practical spending by the federal government.

Scrum · 07-29-2009, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

Of course people were complaining about it. Why do you think the Republicans lost control of Congress in 06 and lost control of the White House? Number one reason: economic policies.

What sheer ignorance...

Bullshit. Number one was the war in Iraq and number two was the corrupt cronyism that was rampant. Economic policies were certainly a part of those issues.

Sheer ignorance indeed. There was very little complaining until it was convenient for conservatives to distance themselves from Bush. That includes people on this forum.

Originally Posted by JaJae

And by the way, people were complaining about the Bush tax cuts... they were liberal. Conservatives don't mind tax cuts and don't want to see the Bush tax cuts repealed. What they want is lower taxes to stimulate growth in the declining economy and practical spending by the federal government.

So the Bush tax cuts were free? The CBO put out a report saying they cost nothing?

Stylerod · 07-29-2009, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by Scrum

There was very little complaining until it was convenient for conservatives to distance themselves from Bush. That includes people on this forum.

Selective memory I guess. I was always pissed at his spending.

JaJae · 07-29-2009, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Scrum

Bullshit. Number one was the war in Iraq and number two was the corrupt cronyism that was rampant. Economic policies were certainly a part of those issues.

Sheer ignorance indeed. There was very little complaining until it was convenient for conservatives to distance themselves from Bush. That includes people on this forum.

The war in Iraq was peanuts compared to the spending Obama is proposing. Remember Obama is promising to increase our national debt by something in the ballpark of just about the cost of 25 Iraq wars. So yes, people were upset with the costs of Iraq, but they also wanted to see it continued. Also keep in mind that the cost of Iraq and the Republican spending is what cost the GOP their majority position in our government. Crying wolf after the history is there plain as day to see doesn't seem to make much sense. Comparing Bush buying a gumball doesn't compare to Obama buying the whole damn factory and having it run by the government.

Also the corrupt cronyism is just as much alive under the Obama administration... if not worse. All the czar positions to get people in positions of authority without a Senate investigation, the ambassador positions, etc. It's all friggin there and actually worse under Obama. Obama had to actually be told to stop giving ambassador positions to his bundlers and friends because he was breaking new records and it would eventually catch wind in the media.

So the Bush tax cuts were free? The CBO put out a report saying they cost nothing?

This post fails at economics. The Bush tax cuts stimulated the economy during the recession and by all accounts it helped our economy. That is why there were tax cuts included in the massive stimulus bill they recently passed. You won't find a conservative complaining about tax cuts during a recession. In fact, it would be nice if Obama would use some good economic principles rather than looking for slick ways to increase everyone's taxes during this recession.

goldenponderbob · 07-29-2009, 07:06 PM

Picture a family of four, all healthy, mom and pop working, and making ends meet, just barely.

Then along come braces, school activities, repair bills and so on, so they run into negative cash flow, use credit, and their deficit rises. They pray for nothing else to go wrong until the spending, all of it unavoidable and necessary, crunch eases. Then daughter sprains an ankle while skiing, and the boy gets himself a DUI. Next, Dad loses his job [auto industry slump] and suddenly the family is in deep financial trouble. That new car they needed, is off the table, and the house may have to go next. There is constant yelling and screaming, nerves are frazzled; dad stays out most nights now doing God knows what.

The scenario above is mild, the PG version, compared to what really goes on in the promised land these days, and mostly it's nobody's fault; it's just the standard of living we've accepted as our birthright.

The federal government prints money, which initially is worth nothing. Then an auction is held and speculators show up intending to get a good deal on a bond secured by that pile of nothing. The bond is also just a piece of worthless paper, except that it carries the promise of the issuer to honor the debt. So the lender exchanges ready cash in exchange for that bond, which they intend to redeem later at a profit. Money from the sale of bonds is what the government uses to pay the bills. The more the government prints, the more it takes to honor that debt; leaving less to run the machinery of government. Detection of a vicious cycle is not a mirage. Lines to purchase the bonds include people who spend the profits in ways with which our leaders disagree, and create problems that force our leaders to spend the borrowed money to fix. Again, detection of a vicious cycle is not a mirage. As the line continues to shrink, real cash to run the government shrinks forcing the government to print more paper and sell more bonds. Once again, detection of a vicious cycle is not imagined.

That family, deep as their problems go, believe me, are infinitely in better shape than our government. The last fellow in a position to make a difference was Bill Clinton. He took heat, lots of it, for raising the hell our of taxes when his fiscal year began in 94', and it cost his party control of congress the following fall. That tax increase put the country on solid financial ground, and less than six years later he balanced the books and created a surplus.

Nobody, but nobody predicted he could do that. So called experts never saw it coming. Pulling that off again is not only, not likely, it's an absolute guaranteed certainty to not happen. Those so 'experts" now supervise the printing of paper and selling of bonds.

So the presses keep runnng and the bonds keep flowing and those in charge spend their time trying to figure how far from Washington DC they will be when the feces strike the revolving blades, which is also an absolute certainty.

Somewhere in the above nonsense is the answer to what's bad about running up a debt from which no sane recovery plan exists.

Bob McDonnell, AKA
goldenponderbob