Violence at health care townhall

thatguyoverthere · 08-07-2009, 09:33 AM

Tampa Town Hall On Health Care Reform Disrupted By Violence (VIDEO)

Note: Several hours after this story was posted on Thursday night, the Tampa Tribune removed a reference to protesters carrying signs that depicted President Obama as the Joker. Yet one conservative blogger who attended the event reports seeing several people "with signs depicting President Obama as the Joker."

Police officers were called to calm down an unruly crowd outside a health care reform town hall meeting in downtown Tampa, Florida on Thursday evening, according to local news reports.

Angry protesters screamed, yelled and banged on windows as officers hurried to guard the entrances to the facility, where U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor was trying to discuss the various health care reform proposals being debated in Congress. One photojournalist said that a fistfight broke out inside the building, reports WTSP.

Many of the hundreds of protesters said that they had been inspired by a conservative activist group promoted by Fox News host Glenn Beck and some received emails from the county Republican party, according to the St. Petersburg Times:

Instead, hundreds of vocal critics turned out, many of them saying they had been spurred on through the Tampa 912 activist group promoted by conservative radio and television personality Glenn Beck. Others had received e-mails from the Hillsborough Republican party that urged people to speak out against the plan and offered talking points to challenge supporters.

The Times added:

The spectacle at the Children's Board in Ybor City sounded more like a wrestling cage match than a panel discussion on national policy, and it was just the latest example of a health care meeting disrupted by livid protesters.

The Tampa Tribune reports that some protesters carried racist caricatures of President Obama and added details of more fights and scuffles:

Several of the protesters' signs bore an image of Obama with his face painted as the Joker, an image that drew protests of racism locally when it appeared on a Web site thought to be associated with the Pinellas Republican party.

There were at least two scuffles between protesters trying to enter and organizers manning the doors.

One of those involved in a scuffle, Randy Arthur, of Oldsmar said he was injured by those manning the doors and said he would file a police report... Randy Arthur, who owns an air conditioning service company, later talked to police officers, his knit shirt ripped and a few scratches visible on his chest. "They slammed him into the wall,'' Kathy Arthur said.

This is why I support moving quickly on health care, because this kind of negativity by the opponents is only going to escalate the longer it's delayed. If President Obama gets tough, his opponents are going to scream and compare him to Hitler; if he relents AT ALL, they're going to steamroller right over him. I say, give 'em hell, Barry.

I oppose a bipartisan approach to the health care plan. IMHO, the conservatives had their chance at implementing the government that they wanted, and they failed. After 9/11, they had the cleanest slate possible. It did not work. It is time for them to get out of the way.

Picture someone who hated the very idea of cars. Would you want that person designing and building a car that someone had to ride in? I personally think conservatives are determined to ruin the health care plan so that they can point to it later and say that they were right all along in opposing it.

As for the violence (which is strangely reminiscent of the 2000 Florida recounts); if you are so incensed as to get physically violent over the possibility that your fellow Americans might get affordable health care, I would suggest you go start your own country. No more excuses.

Finally, I can't believe that these protesters get so upset at the thought of affordable health care for their fellow countrymen, but didn't give a damn about the wasted money money, the lost lives, the sacrifice, and the diminishing of our good reputation around the world as a result of our war of choice in Iraq.

I simply cannot stand that these folks (who most often claim to be pro-life) are horrified at the mere thought of paying for affordable health care for their fellow Americans, yet shrug their shoulders at the cost of war.

Stylerod · 08-07-2009, 09:41 AM

It's only going to get worse now that the AFL-CIO has said that they were going to send in paid thugs to counter the protesters.

Protesting the government is one of the most patriotic things an American can do. At least that's what I was told when Bush was president. Now all the sudden it's a bad thing.

People are scared. Most like their heath care and are worried that once government gets control it's going to get worse. So they are making their opinions known. Politicians stating that they have no intention of reading the bill they are about to sign does nothing to ease peoples minds and the people are using their constitutional right of free speech to let them know how they feel.

I guess you are in the shut up and say nothing crowd?

thatguyoverthere · 08-07-2009, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by Stylerod

It's only going to get worse now that the AFL-CIO has said that they were going to send in paid thugs to counter the protesters.

Protesting the government is one of the most patriotic things an American can do. At least that's what I was told when Bush was president. Now all the sudden it's a bad thing.

People are scared. Most like their heath care and are worried that once government gets control it's going to get worse. So they are making their opinions known. Politicians stating that they have no intention of reading the bill they are about to sign does nothing to ease peoples minds and the people are using their constitutional right of free speech to let them know how they feel.

I guess you are in the shut up and say nothing crowd?

No, I'm in the "put up or shut up" crowd. The Republicans had their way, they ruined the economy and didn't do anything to improve health care or make it more affordable. It's called "lead, follow, or get out of the way." They had their chance to lead, they couldn't. They have their chance to follow, they don't want to. Therefore, they should get out of the way.

"Most like their health care"? The ones that have it? You know a great many Americans don't have health care, don't you? And if you think that they LIKE it that way, I think you're greatly mistaken. For those without health care, their health care is not going to get worse, because right now they don't have any, and having something is better than nothing.

As for the ones who like their health care, how about the ones who have health insurance and still can't get covered because the insurance companies try to do everything they can not to cover them? Do they like their health care? Are they satisfied with it?

"Most like their health care"

Health care in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The World Health Organization (WHO), in 2000, ranked the U.S. health care system as the highest in cost, first in responsiveness, 37th in overall performance, and 72nd by overall level of health (among 191 member nations included in the study).[11][12] The WHO study has been criticized in a study published in Health Affairs for its methodology and lack of correlation with user satisfaction ratings.[13] A 2008 report by the Commonwealth Fund ranked the United States last in the quality of health care among the 19 compared countries.[14] However, the U.S. also has higher survival rates than most other countries for certain conditions, such as some less common cancers.[15] Yet, the U.S. has a higher infant mortality rate than all other developed countries.[nb 1][16]

You like that? You think most people in America like that?

Stylerod · 08-07-2009, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by thatguyoverthere

No, I'm in the "put up or shut up" crowd. The Republicans had their way, they ruined the economy and didn't do anything to improve health care or make it more affordable. It's called "lead, follow, or get out of the way." They had their chance to lead, they couldn't. They have their chance to follow, they don't want to. Therefore, they should get out of the way.

"Most like their health care"? The ones that have it? You know a great many Americans don't have health care, don't you? And if you think that they LIKE it that way, I think you're greatly mistaken. For those without health care, their health care is not going to get worse, because right now they don't have any, and having something is better than nothing.

As for the ones who like their health care, how about the ones who have health insurance and still can't get covered because the insurance companies try to do everything they can not to cover them? Do they like their health care? Are they satisfied with it?

"Most like their health care"

Health care in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You like that? You think most people in America like that?

Even using Obama's inflated numbers on uninsured about 17% of the US is uninsured. That number included illegals, people who were temporarily off insurance and people who chose not to have insurance.

Your little Wiki article shows we are ranked #1 in responsiveness. That is a HUGE plus. That means people get treated very, very quickly. Better than anywhere else in the world. What happens when you take the entire healthcare industry and insurance industry and give it to a giant bureaucracy like the US government? Things will get worse. Much, much worse.

How about we concentrate on that 17% (+ or -) of people and get them looked after and leave everyone else alone?

Yes, most people are happy with their heath care. That is the reason Obama had to start calling it insurance reform rather than health care reform. People weren't upset with their health care, but many were upset with their insurance.

And don't forget, Democrats have been in control of the government for over 4 years now. You can't blame everything on Bush.

Scrum · 08-07-2009, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Protesting the government is one of the most patriotic things an American can do. At least that's what I was told when Bush was president. Now all the sudden it's a bad thing.

Screaming bullshit over and over at a townhall isn't a protest, it's trying to disrupt the meeting so it can't take place.

Originally Posted by Stylerod

People are scared. Most like their heath care and are worried that once government gets control it's going to get worse.

Most?

Most recent polls show that the majority of Americans support a public option. Recent polling from Washington Post/ABC News, Time, and McClatchy all show more than 50 percent support for a public option; two Quinnipiac polls and a New York Times/CBS News poll show more than 60 percent support; and an NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll shows 46 percent support for a public option:

Quinnipiac: 62 percent support "public option."...

Washington Post/ABC News: 54 percent support a "government-run plan." ...

Time: 56 percent favor a "government-sponsored" option....

NY Times/CBS News: 66 percent favor a "government administered" plan....

McClatchy: 52 percent say "it is necessary to create a public health insurance plan." ...

NBC News/Wall Street Journal: 46 percent favor a plan "administered by the federal government." ...

thatguyoverthere · 08-07-2009, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Most like their heath care

SHOCKER!!! Most people that have health care... like it!

Yet, as so often is the case in this world, that fact alone doesn't tell the whole story.

ABCNEWS.com : U.S. Health Care Concerns Increase

Originally Posted by ABC News 2003

Health Care Pains
Growing Health Care Concerns Fuel Cautious Support for Change

Analysis
By Gary Langer

Oct. 20— Americans express broad, and in some cases growing, discontent with the U.S. health care system, based on its costs, structure and direction alike — fueling cautious support for a government-run, taxpayer-funded universal health system modeled on Medicare.
In an extensive ABCNEWS/Washington Post poll, Americans by a 2-1 margin, 62-32 percent, prefer a universal health insurance program over the current employer-based system. That support, however, is conditional: It falls to fewer than four in 10 if it means a limited choice of doctors, or waiting lists for non-emergency treatments.
Support for change is based largely on unease with the current system's costs. Seventy-eight percent are dissatisfied with the cost of the nation's health care system, including 54 percent "very" dissatisfied.
Indeed, most Americans, or 54 percent, are now dissatisfied with the overall quality of health care in the United States — the first majority in three polls since 1993, and up 10 points since 2000.
...

FOXNews.com - U.S. Trails Others in Health Care Satisfaction - Health News | Current Health News | Medical News

FOXNEWS.COM HOME > HEALTH
U.S. Trails Others in Health Care Satisfaction
Friday, October 29, 2004
By Todd Zwillich
E-MailPrint
Share:
Americans are more dissatisfied than citizens of other nations with their basic health care (search) even while paying more of their own money for treatment, a five-nation survey released Thursday notes.

The study shows that people in the U.S. face longer wait times to see doctors and have more trouble getting care on evenings or weekends than do people in other industrialized countries. At the same time, Americans were more likely to receive advice on disease prevention and self-care than others.

One-third of Americans told pollsters that the U.S. health care system should be completely rebuilt, far more than residents of Australia, Canada, New Zealand, or the U.K. Just 16 percent of Americans said that the U.S. health care system needs only minor changes, the lowest number expressing approval among the countries surveyed.
...

- BusinessWeek

Originally Posted by Businessweek 2007

Best Countries For Health Care
Among seven nations surveyed, the U.S. ranks lowest in patient satisfaction with overall medical care

By Catherine Arnst

U.S. politicians often crow that the U.S. health-care system is the best in the world. Patients appear to disagree. Earlier this year, the non-profit Commonwealth Fund surveyed 12,000 adults in seven countries, all of which except the U.S. have universal medical coverage. One-third of those surveyed in the U.S. said their national health-care system has to be rebuilt completely, a significantly higher percentage than in any other country surveyed. The U.S. system ranked dead last when patients were asked if only minor changes were needed, and a higher percentage of U.S. respondents -- 30% -- said they had paid more than $1,000 in out-of-pocket medical expenses in the past year.
...

thatguyoverthere · 08-07-2009, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Your little Wiki article shows we are ranked #1 in responsiveness. That is a HUGE plus. That means people get treated very, very quickly. Better than anywhere else in the world.

When they charge you an arm and a leg for the ambulance ride alone, it's not that surprising that they'll come and get you quickly, is it?

Responsiveness is not the same thing as care, and you should know that. And way to go ignoring the rest of "my little Wiki article". I'll assume that you're okay with the US being highest in cost, 37th out of 191 in overall performance, 72nd out of 191 in overall level of health, and a higher level of infant mortality rate than all the other developed countries in the world, but at least we can get that dying baby to a hospital quickly, huh? That's the important thing, right?

kinggovernor · 08-07-2009, 11:16 AM

YouTube - Fight at Russ Carnahan Town Hall Event...

imagine that union thugs getting violent at a public meeting, I am sure the SEIU is proud.

kinggovernor · 08-07-2009, 11:19 AM

YouTube - Kathy Castor Town Hall Erupts in Tampa...

as you can see here those kind, heartful union members threw people out of the room and then shut the door. This is the kind of political discourse only community organizers can be proud of.

Scrum · 08-07-2009, 11:21 AM

Those idiots thought they could just show up at townhalls and try to shut them down without anyone opposing them? Fuck em.

stolz25 · 08-07-2009, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by thatguyoverthere

No, I'm in the "put up or shut up" crowd. The Republicans had their way, they ruined the economy and didn't do anything to improve health care or make it more affordable.

Here we have the beauty of a two party system.

kinggovernor · 08-07-2009, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Scrum

Those idiots thought they could just show up at townhalls and try to shut them down without anyone opposing them? Fuck em.

little did they realize they were going up against the professional protesters, the kind of people that have astro turfing firms and are the gold standard in the industry.

Stylerod · 08-07-2009, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Scrum

Those idiots thought they could just show up at townhalls and try to shut them down without anyone opposing them? Fuck em.

Yeah, they should all be beat up for trying to voice their opinions

Scrum · 08-07-2009, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Yeah, they should all be beat up for trying to voice their opinions

They are not there to voice their opinions. They are there to stop others from participating in the town hall.

There's a lot of pushing and shoving in those videos. If you think only one side is responsible for the fights then you are deluding yourself.

DosEquis · 08-07-2009, 12:08 PM

The set of rights we are working with do not protect the right to violent protest.

snjmom · 08-07-2009, 12:09 PM

astro turfing firms

?

Russ is my congressman. He's a putz. Looked like the first guy on the ground was a union guy, though. Looks like the woman knocked him down, then the big union guy pulled her down to the ground.

Gotta love the moke trying to get his placard in view of the camera, though.

Scrum · 08-07-2009, 12:10 PM

I know I know. Krugman and the Times. Librhul media.

The Town Hall Mob

By PAUL KRUGMAN
There’s a famous Norman Rockwell painting titled “Freedom of Speech,” depicting an idealized American town meeting. The painting, part of a series illustrating F.D.R.’s “Four Freedoms,” shows an ordinary citizen expressing an unpopular opinion. His neighbors obviously don’t like what he’s saying, but they’re letting him speak his mind.

That’s a far cry from what has been happening at recent town halls, where angry protesters — some of them, with no apparent sense of irony, shouting “This is America!” — have been drowning out, and in some cases threatening, members of Congress trying to talk about health reform.

Some commentators have tried to play down the mob aspect of these scenes, likening the campaign against health reform to the campaign against Social Security privatization back in 2005. But there’s no comparison. I’ve gone through many news reports from 2005, and while anti-privatization activists were sometimes raucous and rude, I can’t find any examples of congressmen shouted down, congressmen hanged in effigy, congressmen surrounded and followed by taunting crowds.

And I can’t find any counterpart to the death threats at least one congressman has received.
So this is something new and ugly. What’s behind it?

Robert Gibbs, the White House press secretary, has compared the scenes at health care town halls to the “Brooks Brothers riot” in 2000 — the demonstration that disrupted the vote count in Miami and arguably helped send George W. Bush to the White House. Portrayed at the time as local protesters, many of the rioters were actually G.O.P. staffers flown in from Washington.
But Mr. Gibbs is probably only half right. Yes, well-heeled interest groups are helping to organize the town hall mobs. Key organizers include two Astroturf (fake grass-roots) organizations: FreedomWorks, run by the former House majority leader Dick Armey, and a new organization called Conservatives for Patients’ Rights.

The latter group, by the way, is run by Rick Scott, the former head of Columbia/HCA, a for-profit hospital chain. Mr. Scott was forced out of that job amid a fraud investigation; the company eventually pleaded guilty to charges of overbilling state and federal health plans, paying $1.7 billion — yes, that’s “billion” — in fines. You can’t make this stuff up.

But while the organizers are as crass as they come, I haven’t seen any evidence that the people disrupting those town halls are Florida-style rent-a-mobs. For the most part, the protesters appear to be genuinely angry. The question is, what are they angry about?

There was a telling incident at a town hall held by Representative Gene Green, D-Tex. An activist turned to his fellow attendees and asked if they “oppose any form of socialized or government-run health care.” Nearly all did. Then Representative Green asked how many of those present were on Medicare. Almost half raised their hands.

Now, people who don’t know that Medicare is a government program probably aren’t reacting to what President Obama is actually proposing. They may believe some of the disinformation opponents of health care reform are spreading, like the claim that the Obama plan will lead to euthanasia for the elderly. (That particular claim is coming straight from House Republican leaders.) But they’re probably reacting less to what Mr. Obama is doing, or even to what they’ve heard about what he’s doing, than to who he is.

That is, the driving force behind the town hall mobs is probably the same cultural and racial anxiety that’s behind the “birther” movement, which denies Mr. Obama’s citizenship. Senator Dick Durbin has suggested that the birthers and the health care protesters are one and the same; we don’t know how many of the protesters are birthers, but it wouldn’t be surprising if it’s a substantial fraction.

And cynical political operators are exploiting that anxiety to further the economic interests of their backers.

Does this sound familiar? It should: it’s a strategy that has played a central role in American politics ever since Richard Nixon realized that he could advance Republican fortunes by appealing to the racial fears of working-class whites.

Many people hoped that last year’s election would mark the end of the “angry white voter” era in America. Indeed, voters who can be swayed by appeals to cultural and racial fear are a declining share of the electorate.

But right now Mr. Obama’s backers seem to lack all conviction, perhaps because the prosaic reality of his administration isn’t living up to their dreams of transformation. Meanwhile, the angry right is filled with a passionate intensity.

And if Mr. Obama can’t recapture some of the passion of 2008, can’t inspire his supporters to stand up and be heard, health care reform may well fail.

kinggovernor · 08-07-2009, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Scrum

I know I know. Krugman and the Times. Librhul media.

he believes the VA should be the model of health care in this country, therefore he is a fucking idiot. I would say that he is stupider than the birthers, because he should know better.

Winston · 08-07-2009, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

he believes the VA should be the model of health care in this country, therefore he is a fucking idiot. I would say that he is stupider than the birthers, because he should know better.

Perhaps I need to file a report to the White House since you are perpetuating the falsehood that VA healthcare is terrible. You might want to re-evaluate your position.

Most private hospitals can only dream of the futuristic medicine Dr. Divya Shroff practices today. Outside an elderly patient's room, the attending physician gathers her residents around a wireless laptop propped on a mobile cart. Shroff accesses the patient's entire medical history--a stack of paper in most private hospitals. And instead of trekking to the radiology lab to view the latest X-ray, she brings it up on her computer screen. While Shroff is visiting the patient, a resident types in a request for pain medication, then punches the SEND button. Seconds later, the printer in the hospital pharmacy spits out the order. The druggist stuffs a plastic bag of pills into what looks like a tiny space capsule, then shoots it up to the ward in a vacuum tube. By the time Shroff wheels away her computer, a nurse walks up with the drugs.

Life in a big-name institution like the Mayo Clinic? Not hardly. Shroff, 31, a specialist in internal medicine, works at the Veterans Affairs hospital in Washington, where the vets who come for the cutting-edge treatment are mostly poor.

How Veterans' Hospitals Became the Best in Health Care - TIME

Donkey® · 08-07-2009, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

he believes the VA should be the model of health care in this country, therefore he is a fucking idiot. I would say that he is stupider than the birthers, because he should know better.

VA is a good system with good treatment. Stop spreading that stupid lie.