What will Dems do with taxes - Page 3

6SpeedTA95 · 10-19-2006, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

Our economy appears to be strong because we are operating with borrowed money, what happens when we have to pay that money back?

Thats a ridiculous argument with regards to the economy. The deficit has actually slowed economic growth the last 2 years vs speeding it up. Our economy has been operating on "borrowed" money according you since about the turn of the century. Our economy is doing very well despite terrorism, despite war, despite high oil prices, despite our governments irresponsible borrowing.

DosEquis · 10-19-2006, 03:43 PM

I'll buy that, but the majority of americans are not as smart as you. The majority might not be as hard working. The majority are not seeing the benefits that you are. The majority are watchings jobs disappear and lower paying ones recreated. The tax cut for them simply balanced out fuel costs and other things which are more expensive these days, because their 3% raise doesn't cut it.

I agree it is not your fault that the majority are not as smart as you. But to generally label the economy as "doing great" when it is only really doing great for investors is kind of overshooting a bit. Clinton got his kudos because 20 million jobs were created in 8 years and they paid really well. Both sides of the spectrum felt the benefits... not just the investor side.

Thorgrim · 10-19-2006, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

When the Dems get in power they'll do whatever they want and blame the shortfalls on the Republicans. They've already managed to convinced Democrats and many others that our current state isn't working and is negative. And aside from the debt, they're wrong. Yet, I don't think most of America realizes that.

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Well here's a list of domestic and other problems Americans face

Originally Posted by JaJae

How is that relevant?

I don't know, I guess its not, until I can prove 100% that tax cuts aren't the best way to solve a problem everytime theres a bump in the road, its pointless to argue that there are other problems in the universe, lets just keep cutting taxes everytime the stock market goes down and then when the military goes bankrupt we can finally sell ourselves to China and be done with it, happy?

JaJae · 10-19-2006, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

I don't know, I guess its not, until I can prove 100% that tax cuts aren't the best way to solve a problem everytime theres a bump in the road, its pointless to argue that there are other problems in the universe, lets just keep cutting taxes everytime the stock market goes down and then when the military goes bankrupt we can finally sell ourselves to China and be done with it, happy?

How can you quote yourself and quote that response from me. That is pathetic. If you don't want to have a serious discussion with people who don't share your views perhaps you should go to DailyKos or Democratic Underground.

KatKanPlay · 10-19-2006, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Thats a ridiculous argument with regards to the economy. The deficit has actually slowed economic growth the last 2 years vs speeding it up. Our economy has been operating on "borrowed" money according you since about the turn of the century. Our economy is doing very well despite terrorism, despite war, despite high oil prices, despite our governments irresponsible borrowing.

Oh? Just because someone has on rose colored glasses doesnt mean the world they are looking at is rose colored.

The U.S. national debt now stands at more than $8.3 trillion, of which more than $2 trillion is owned by foreigners. Since 2000, the percentage of U.S. public debt owed to foreigners has doubled.

Take China for example. As of March of this year, China held over $321 billion worth of U.S. Treasuries, up from the $60 billion it owned at the end of 2000. Similarly, Japan now owns $640 billion worth of U.S. Treasuries, up from $317.7 billion in December 2000. Lately, however, America has also borrowed heavily from oil exporter nations (as defined by the Department of the Treasury), which include many nations that despise America. Luminaries such as Venezuela, Ecuador, Iran, Libya, Algeria, Indonesia and Iraq, and several other primarily Middle Eastern nations, now own $98 billion worth of U.S. debt.

For example, remember what happened on June 23, 1997, when former Japanese Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto wondered aloud about what would happen to the U.S. economy if Japan diversified and began to sell some of its, at that time, $300 billion in U.S. Treasury securities (remember Japan now owns more than $640 billion worth). Following Hashimoto’s remarks, the Dow Jones Industrial Average plunged by the largest single day amount (at that time) since the Crash of 1987. Aids to Hashimoto were quick to say that the comments were not intended as a threat. Since then, other foreigners have wondered aloud about dumping U.S. debt (Treasuries), also causing ripple effects through global markets (Moscow Times, May 11).

America’s indebtedness is endangering the nation. Edwin Truman, who directed the Federal Reserve System’s Division of International Finance for 20 years, is not a doomsayer, but even he is warning America that there is now a 10 to 15 percent probability of a “catastrophic collapse of the financial system.” Never mind about the regular-type collapses: He is warning about a “catastrophic” disaster on the scale of the Great Depression or worse (Wall Street Journal, op. cit.).

Who is a serf? A serf is one whose destiny is owned by others. Someone else owns the land he slaves on. Someone else owns the profits and technology he develops. All the fruits of his labor flow to his owners.

Debt is turning America into a serfdom.

“The Looming Dangers of American Debt” - theTrumpet.com

Ridiculous argument? It is all tied together. Our tax dollars hard at work...

Thorgrim · 10-19-2006, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

How can you quote yourself and quote that response from me. That is pathetic. If you don't want to have a serious discussion with people who don't share your views perhaps you should go to DailyKos or Democratic Underground.

How can I have a serious discussion with someone who doesn't think Al-Qaeda/Taliban is relevant to the United States of America's economic policies?

6SpeedTA95 · 10-19-2006, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

Oh? Just because someone has on rose colored glasses doesnt mean the world they are looking at is rose colored.

“The Looming Dangers of American Debt” - theTrumpet.com

Ridiculous argument? It is all tied together. Our tax dollars hard at work...

Who's saying the debt isn't a bad thing? You said the use of "borrowed" money aka the debt and deficit was helping our economy. You said "Our economy appears to be strong because we are operating with borrowed money, what happens when we have to pay that money back?"

Our economy is strong despite the record deficit spending and pressure the government has put on the private sector.

JaJae · 10-19-2006, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

How can I have a serious discussion with someone who doesn't think Al-Qaeda/Taliban is relevant to the United States of America's economic policies?

When you couple Taliban, North Korea, Iran etc it's fairly circumstantial. If you're talking about the war in Afghanistan, that's one thing. Regardless.. half of the things you listed were fairly irrelevant or things the Democrats have a worse track record on. Rather than facing that you made the above post taking me out of context. And you are now admitting you have no intentions of having a serious discussion in this thread... right after that out of context post. Quite interesting position you have on the forum.

KatKanPlay · 10-19-2006, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Who's saying the debt isn't a bad thing? You said the use of "borrowed" money aka the debt and deficit was helping our economy. You said "Our economy appears to be strong because we are operating with borrowed money, what happens when we have to pay that money back?"

Our economy is strong despite the record deficit spending and pressure the government has put on the private sector.

And I am saying the the strong economy may very well be just a temporary illusion. Just like the guy that lives behind a gated community, in his nice big 4 bedroom house and driving his brand new sports car with his family in fine clothes and going to the best school, but he is in debt up to his eyeballs. When these other countries decide to call in this debt, who are you going to blame for the eventual tax increase necessary to meet these payments?

Thorgrim · 10-19-2006, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

When you couple Taliban, North Korea, Iran etc it's fairly circumstantial. If you're talking about the war in Afghanistan, that's one thing. Regardless.. half of the things you listed were fairly irrelevant or things the Democrats have a worse track record on. Rather than facing that you made the above post taking me out of context. And you are now admitting you have no intentions of having a serious discussion in this thread... right after that out of context post. Quite interesting position you have on the forum.

Oh, so again all those things are irrelevant or democrats did worse on, which again makes it irrelevant to discuss...and on top of this, I'm the one not trying to have a serious discussion?

I mean, what could the Taliban do, harbor terrorists that launch airplanes into buildings that cause a stock market crash and new economic problems? ahha oh thats such a silly idea, why did i even think to bring it up

I live in fantasy land and make up these ridiculous scenarios, sorry you're right its all irrelevant, the question is, can you ever forgive me?

6SpeedTA95 · 10-19-2006, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

And I am saying the the strong economy may very well be just a temporary illusion. Just like the guy that lives behind a gated community, in his nice big 4 bedroom house and driving his brand new sports car with his family in fine clothes and going to the best school, but he is in debt up to his eyeballs. When these other countries decide to call in this debt, who are you going to blame for the eventual tax increase necessary to meet these payments?

Personal debt and national debt are not the same and do not function the same. I dont like the debt or deficit but you can't compare the two because they're not comparable.

KatKanPlay · 10-19-2006, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Personal debt and national debt are not the same and do not function the same. I dont like the debt or deficit but you can't compare the two because they're not comparable.

You are absolutely right, my analogy was quick and off the cuff, but they do link up in terms of taxes as does the current economy and inevitable reconcilliation of the national debt.

6SpeedTA95 · 10-19-2006, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

You are absolutely right, my analogy was quick and off the cuff, but they do link up in terms of taxes as does the current economy and inevitable reconcilliation of the national debt.

If government would quit spending there wouldn't be a problem. Raising my taxes merely exacerbates the problem in the long run because the next time they run a surplus they just fucking spend it.

KatKanPlay · 10-19-2006, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

If government would quit spending there wouldn't be a problem. Raising my taxes merely exacerbates the problem in the long run because the next time they run a surplus they just fucking spend it.

I see no hopes of any surpluses for at least another generation and at the current rate of spending we are all kidding ourselves if we think our taxes are not going to go up. Todays debt either has to be paid or we learn to speak Chinese.

6SpeedTA95 · 10-19-2006, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

I see no hopes of any surpluses for at least another generation and at the current rate of spending we are all kidding ourselves if we think our taxes are not going to go up. Todays debt either has to be paid or we learn to speak Chinese.

Another generation? When the deficit has been chopped in half in 2 years?

KatKanPlay · 10-19-2006, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Another generation? When the deficit has been chopped in half in 2 years?

I wish I could say that this was significant, but I really dont think it is.

6SpeedTA95 · 10-19-2006, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

I wish I could say that this was significant, but I really dont think it is.

So going from an unsustainable deficit to a sustainable deficit in 1/2 the time the president said he would and in 1/3 the time even the most optomistic democrats said we could...yet its not significant?

KatKanPlay · 10-19-2006, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

So going from an unsustainable deficit to a sustainable deficit in 1/2 the time the president said he would and in 1/3 the time even the most optomistic democrats said we could...yet its not significant?

Okay, in light of the national debt, and without making me go to cross eyed, please explain to me why you think this is significant. I realize it sounds good, but I see no vision of a balanced budget anytime soon much less a budget surplus. Im not the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to economics, but Im not a total idiot either. I will gladly concede that I may be missing somthing here and would like you to explain what it is I may not be seeing.

6SpeedTA95 · 10-19-2006, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

Okay, in light of the national debt, and without making me go to cross eyed, please explain to me why you think this is significant. I realize it sounds good, but I see no vision of a balanced budget anytime soon much less a budget surplus. Im not the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to economics, but Im not a total idiot either. I will gladly concede that I may be missing somthing here and would like you to explain what it is I may not be seeing.

Because its a know economic fact that a deficit of less than 3% GDP is sustainable in the long run in a variety of economic conditions. It's significantly lower than many other industrialized nations. Our structural deficit is right at 2% if you include emergency war spending its now down to 3% so thats significant.